QAV AU 845 – Michael Goldberg Returns: Gold, AI, and Value Investing in 2025

 

Cameron: Wel­come back to QAV, episode 845. We’re record­ing this on the 10th of Novem­ber, 2025. Keep­ing with the 20 fives. The last time our guest was on this show was episode 525. 300 episodes ago, I guess. Uh, that was in July of 2022. Wel­come back. Michael Gold­berg from Collins Street Asset Man­age­ment. How have the last three and, uh, change years been for you and Collins Street?

Michael, I.

Michael: Tony, thank you for hav­ing me back again. It’s always a blast to talk to you guys. three years has been an inter­est­ing time. I mean, cer­tain­ly I think val­ue invest­ing strug­gled for a lit­tle while. We’ve, uh, we’ve, we’ve been able to. some real­ly good returns. I think we’re still run­ning at about 14% since we launched in 2016.

The last five years I think we’re run­ning at about 14 and a half. So no com­plaints there, but it’s cer­tain­ly been a bumpy ride and I think any­one who’s a val­ue investor would prob­a­bly say the same. How have you guys done,

Cameron: No,

Michael: your

Cameron: no.

Michael: last cou­ple

Cameron: We had no,

Michael: No.

Cameron: we had no but [00:01:00] 2021 to 2023, uh, the cou­ple of years there, you know, were tough. We real­ly suf­fered and we thought it was just us. So I’m glad we should have had you on more often dur­ing that peri­od so we could com­mis­er­ate.

Michael: You, you guys are much more data dri­ven, I think. I think you guys prob­a­bly have more sophis­ti­cat­ed tools for pick­ing your stocks, but for me it’s, it’s been inter­est­ing and frus­trat­ing and equal parts, um, you know, ordi­nar­i­ly. Look again over the last year it’s been real­ly, real­ly good for us. But the cou­ple of years before that, you know, it, it was, it was sur­pris­ing how many stocks stayed in our port­fo­lio for a long peri­od of time.

You know, nor­mal­ly you have some sort of recy­cling going through, but I just found that the last four or five years, the stocks that were cheap five years ago were still cheap a year ago. Um, and that’s a strange and dif­fer­ent sort of sit­u­a­tion to be in. Um, but you know, our take is if they’re fun­da­men­tal­ly good busi­ness­es, even­tu­al­ly the mar­ket will cot­ton on. The ques­tion is when’s he [00:02:00] even­tu­al­ly.

Cameron: Well, uh, I was just gonna say, our port­fo­lio, the one that we run for the pod­cast that’s been run­ning since 2019, now, I guess last five years, it’s just lit­tle bit less than 19% per annum.

Michael: Amaz­ing.

Cameron: But near­ly half of that is div­i­dends, right? So 11.5% is cap­i­tal return, the rest is div­i­dends. But you know, that cou­ple of years that I men­tioned, like just COVID, post COVID was great.

2020 to 2021. Mid­dle of that, soon as inter­est rates start­ed to go up, it was basi­cal­ly begin­ning of 2022, inter­est rates start­ed going up. Ukraine hap­pened. And, uh, it, it was a rough cou­ple of years, but, um, last year or so, it’s been great again, last 18 months, it’s real­ly recov­ered quite well. Some of the port­fo­lios that I start­ed for our, uh, a pro­gram we start­ed called QAV Lite in ear­ly 2022, were under­wa­ter for like a year and a half, two years.

It was, [00:03:00] it was mis­er­able. And they’re all doing dou­ble mar­ket now. So, you know, they’ve, the last six months have boomed through, you know.

Michael: I think if you did­n’t own Com­mon­wealth Bank over the last coup over

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: cou­ple of years, you were pret­ty much out­ta luck.

Cameron: So, um, Michael, it’s been a cou­ple of years as I men­tioned since we had you on, and I was, we keep say­ing we should get Michael back on, but we were too. Too mis­er­able. Uh, then I got your new, I got your newslet­ter, Rob’s newslet­ter that came out your Sep­tem­ber, 2025 quar­ter­ly report. And I know you, you men­tioned arti­fi­cial intel­li­gence and I know Tony’s got a lot of ques­tions for you, which we’ll get to in a sec­ond.

But before we get to that, you high­light­ed, uh, three com­pa­nies. Astron Lim­it­ed. Sev­en West Media and Hum. Group Lim­it­ed. We’re quite famil­iar with Hum and sev­en. West Media got a ques­tion for you about them in a minute, but Astron has­n’t been on our buy list, but the last time you were on our show in 2022, [00:04:00] you men­tioned Astron, A TR.

I think you, they might have been a new invest­ment for you

Michael: That may

Cameron: then. Can, can you remind our audi­ence about Astron, who they are and what they do? They’re a min­ing com­pa­ny, aren’t they?

Michael: are, they’re based out of an area called Don­ald, which is in, uh, which is in Coun­try Vic­to­ria. They own prob­a­bly the world’s largest unde­vel­oped min­er­al sands mine, and they also have rare earths on that same ten­e­ment. Um, in terms of their pro­gres­sion, uh, the recent nego­ti­a­tions with the US have seen them get some very attrac­tive fund­ing from the us. would say in the last 12 months or so, the stock has prob­a­bly gone up about 150%. They’ve actu­al­ly had a split, which means that if you look at the share price, you might not be able to tell that. Um, but yeah, I mean, if, if they man­aged to get their mines up, their min­er­al sand project alone is enough to, is, is big enough to last for about 40 years they could pro­duce as much as I think 10 years of glob­al demand by them­selves once they get it up.

So it’s, it’s quite a large mine. It’s got quite a lot of, uh, upside [00:05:00] poten­tial. Um, and like I said, they’ve now got a US part­ner. They’ve now got financ­ing, and so it looks like they’re mov­ing towards get­ting beyond just the the­o­ret­i­cal, um, deci­sion mak­ing and poten­tial­ly into, you know, final­ly after almost a gen­er­a­tion, uh, devel­op­ing the mine site, which would be very excit­ing.

Tony Kynas­ton: Do you, when you are assess­ing a com­pa­ny like that, do you fol­low the, or take a posi­tion on the under­ly com­mod­i­ty? Do you work out, is that in the dol­drums? Is it doing well? Which I guess for min­er­al sands would be some­thing like tita­ni­um diox­ide.

Michael: Look, the, the min­er­al sands, um, are the sort of min­er­al sands that go into build­ing tiles. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s not, not as excit­ing as per­haps some of the, uh, high­er tech min­er­al sands or, or rare earths. Um. of their min­er­al sands that they have mined his­tor­i­cal­ly, they had pre­vi­ous mines, um, have been sold into the Chi­nese mar­ket, lit­er­al­ly to make tool, uh,

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: tiles or white or, um, would you call like porce­lain goods.

The sort of things that go into mak­ing bath­tubs and kitchens are what you’d use this brand or this, [00:06:00] this ver­sion of min­er­al sands for

Tony Kynas­ton: Right. But do you still,

Michael: right, the rarest are much more excit­ing. Um, but that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s not what they’ve focused on until now.

Tony Kynas­ton: but do you do any sort of analy­sis on the under­ly­ing com­mod­i­ty? Because you know, for exam­ple, uh, lithi­um stocks a few years ago were a huge boom and bust cycle, and you kin­da like could see that com­ing and going in the com­mod­i­ty. Itself before you’re wor­ried about the min­ers who are min­ing it. So do you take a posi­tion on whether your com­pa­ny that is going to do well because the, you know, the mar­ket for the under­ly­ing com­mod­i­ty is strong or weak, or where does that fit in?

Michael: I, think that if a com­mod­i­ty is doing excep­tion­al­ly well, you do have to take a posi­tion, um, because oth­er­wise it becomes dif­fi­cult to work out what the val­ue is. For some­thing as bor­ing as. As, as min­er­al sands, I don’t think it’s as nec­es­sary. Um, the min­er­al sands price has been pret­ty flat for an extend­ed peri­od of time. Um, they did a fea­si­bil­i­ty, a fea­si­bil­i­ty study 15 years ago, and they did anoth­er fea­si­bil­i­ty [00:07:00] study again a cou­ple of years ago. And both times it showed, um, based on pre­vail­ing prices that they are very, very eco­nom­ic. And so there we did­n’t have to take a a, a. Strong posi­tion on what we thought Min­er­al Stan­dard was gonna do.

But to your point, um, you know, we, we were asked on sev­er­al occa­sions if we were invest­ing in lithi­um when the boom kicked off. And our take was, look, you know, there are cer­tain­ly com­pa­nies that are gonna make fab­u­lous mon­ey out of it, but at this point we don’t know. You know, we can’t work out based on our assess­ment of demand and sup­ply and, and what’s com­ing on in terms of pro­duc­tion, whether, whether lithi­um’s expen­sive or whether it’s cheap.

But cer­tain­ly it’s much more expen­sive than it was yes­ter­day and the day before. Um, so I think if you are, if you’re invest­ing in. Some­thing that’s going through a boom. You have to have a strong posi­tion on what you think the gen­uine val­ue of that com­mod­i­ty is. Um, but if you’re buy­ing some­thing that has­n’t expe­ri­enced a boom like that and you can assess the project based on its eco­nom­ics, then I think it’s also impor­tant.

Tony Kynas­ton: And you, you do your, your com­pa­ny does take posi­tions on com­mod­i­ty relat­ed themes too. ’cause I’ve seen spe­cial funds set up to take advan­tage of that. Hmm.

Michael: [00:08:00] I mean the, the, the prob­a­bly our, our, our most, our most famous or infa­mous, uh, spe­cial sit­u­a­tion, uh, spe­cial sit­u­a­tion fund is our gold fund.

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Michael: it about two years ago, and even then, at the time when we launched it, VAs, my busi­ness part­ner and I, we, we did­n’t agree on every­thing. Um, which is not a sur­prise for any­body who’s met me in VAs. But, um, you know. Basi­cal­ly, VAs was very, very con­fi­dent that the price of gold was gonna increase sub­stan­tial­ly from about the 1600 US dol­lars at the time. Um, I’m dumb­ing myself in here. I said I under­stand all the rea­sons for the, for why you think the tail­winds stack up. I under­stand demand and sup­ply.

I under­stand there’s been a un under, under devel­op­ment of new projects. I under­stand, you know, that, that. If you look at gold as, as, as, as mon­ey, then if you’re, if you’re com­par­ing it rel­a­tive to, to, to, to reg­u­lar cur­ren­cies, that that, you know, there’s a lot of upside just based on the infla­tion­ary impact. But I said, I’m not com­fort­able invest­ing in gold stocks based on spec­u­la­tion. I wan­na be sure that if we’re buy­ing gold stocks to get expo­sure to the gold sto­ry, buy­ing [00:09:00] gold stocks that are. Cheap based on the cur­rent sta­tus quo. And so that’s what we did. We looked for com­pa­nies that were, that were priced as if gold were, at the time, I don’t know, $800 or a thou­sand dol­lars, and we said, you know what?

Where the gold goes up or a lit­tle bit down, these com­pa­nies ought to do quite well. Now of course, we’ve had the dou­ble tail­wind that, um, gold prices have gone up and a lot of these com­pa­nies, not all of these com­pa­nies, but a lot of com­pa­nies have seen a lot of excite­ment come into them. And so I think we’ve seen about 150% return. In about the two years that we’ve been launch­ing the fund, that since we’ve launched the fund. Um, but yeah, they’re cer­tain­ly help­ful to have a view

Tony Kynas­ton: Yes.

Michael: but, uh, my pref­er­ence is to not be reliant on high­er prices of com­mod­i­ty to make mon­ey out of the equi­ty invest­ments.

Tony Kynas­ton: We, I don’t take spe­cial sit­u­a­tions in the way you’ve just described it, but what I find is that by fol­low­ing our process, you look back and say, gee, I’ve bought a lot of gold min­ers in the last six months, and it becomes a, a theme any­way from the ground up rather than iden­ti­fy­ing the macro fac­tors involved.

Michael: I, you know what? I [00:10:00] agree, Tony. I mean that, that’s, that’s how this actu­al fund came about. We’re not out there look­ing to launch new funds. You know, VAs and I are investors. We love busi­ness­es, we love val­u­a­tions, we love fund­ing oppor­tu­ni­ties. when we find an idea through our broad­er research that either does­n’t fit, man­date, or goes a bit too far, um, for our flag­ship then we’ll launch some­thing to give us, you know, spe­cial expo­sure.

So we, we had, we’ve got a lit­tle bit less now, but at the time when we launched the, the, uh, the gold gold fund, we already had. ish per­cent expo­sure to gold com­pa­nies in our flag­ship com­pa­ny.

Tony Kynas­ton: Right.

Michael: but we both want­ed more, but we did­n’t think it was appro­pri­ate to have more than 30% in what’s sup­posed to be a diver­si­fied port­fo­lio.

And so at that point we, we said, well, why don’t we just launch a new fund? We flagged the idea with some investors and they were all on board, and so we launched it and thank God we’ve done very.

Tony Kynas­ton: And is that, and, and I think the oth­er thing about the spe­cial sit­u­a­tion funds, which I find inter­est­ing, is are not intend­ing to keep that open for­ev­er. It’s going to have a, a life cycle and end at some stage.

Michael: Yeah. So, so the, the, the way we struc­ture [00:11:00] them is that num­ber one, they’re, they’ve got a life cycle, they’ve got a matu­ri­ty date, and num­ber two, they’re closed. And we do that for two rea­sons, num­ber one. I think investors in gen­er­al tend to stress when they see volatil­i­ty. And if you’re invest­ing in a sin­gle com­mod­i­ty, good chance you’re gonna see some volatil­i­ty.

So if we give our­selves a three or four year time hori­zon, we can see our way through that volatil­i­ty and get towards the pos­i­tive out­comes. Um. So that’s why it’s a closed end­ed fund. And in terms of time­frames, if you, if, if you’re invest­ing in a sin­gle type of idea, there’s no, there’s no sin­gle idea that I’m aware of in the his­to­ry of the world that has been val­ue for­ev­er.

Things

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: and things become expen­sive, and at some point you’re gonna want to exit. So we think that, you know, for these sorts of things, for these sorts of, uh, cycli­cal the­mat­ics. Four-ish years is prob­a­bly about right. That gives you enough time to see the results. Um, and then if peo­ple wan­na stick around after­wards, they’re wel­come to stick around after­wards.

If peo­ple wan­na get out, then we give them the oppor­tu­ni­ty to get out.

Tony Kynas­ton: So the fund might keep going, but you’ll, [00:12:00] you’ll allow redemp­tions after a cer­tain date. Is that how it works?

Michael: Yeah, that’s the way it works. Um, we also, often with these sorts of things, we’ll have a. Cap­i­tal returns along the jour­ney.

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: we launched this par­tic­u­lar fund, the Gold Fund, about two years ago with the intend­ed, it should last about four years.

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Michael: I said, some spec­tac­u­lar returns in the first cou­ple of years, and so we actu­al­ly returned, um, about 78 cents on every dol­lar that peo­ple had already invest­ed, that peo­ple

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: invest­ed.

We were returned back to clients, uh, cou­ple months ago, so they’ve still got. I don’t know, a dol­lar 50, a dol­lar 70, I think it’s prob­a­bly a dol­lar, $70, 75 for every dol­lar they invest­ed, and they’ve also got 78 cents back. So,

Tony Kynas­ton: that’s like a PE of 1.3.

Michael: Uh, so yeah, look, I mean, I think peo­ple like get­ting their cap­i­tal back. I think it improves your IRRs. Um, and if peo­ple wan­na rein­vest it, then we, we gave that oppor­tu­ni­ty to peo­ple who did wan­na rein­vest. But we thought, you know, giv­en, giv­en that peo­ple had come into this fund with an idea of how much risk they want­ed to take, [00:13:00] giv­en that they’ve now got much more expo­sure.

’cause, ’cause the, the fund had done so well, we gave peo­ple the oppor­tu­ni­ty to take that off the table.

Tony Kynas­ton: So, so giv­en you watch the sec­tor quite close­ly because of that fund, what’s your view on the life­cy­cle of gold? When, when do you start exit­ing posi­tions your­self?

Michael: Tough ques­tions Look, I mean, you can pick arbi­trary num­bers. You can say, oh, if the, if, if the port­fo­lio goes up more the next per­cent. Or you can pick an arbi­trary num­ber in terms of what gold prices are in a par­tic­u­lar cur­ren­cy. Um, there’s, there’s as much, there’s as much, um, art as there is sci­ence.

I think in my view at least. I think the point at which I’ll get gen­uine­ly con­cerned that we’ve hit the peak of the cycle is the point at which. list­ed com­pa­nies are pre­dict­ing high­er gold prices in their val­u­a­tion. So at the

Tony Kynas­ton: Right.

Michael: grant­ed that gold prices fit 4,000, I think if you look across most of the gold stocks on the ASX, most of them, their earn­ings or the, or the, or their, or the unit price is pre­dict­ing gold price well below 3000. I think [00:14:00] that’s prob­a­bly quite usu­al, um, for when a, for when a, a com­mod­i­ty is becom­ing hot. I think when a com­mod­i­ty has become hot. And per­haps too hot, you’ll start to see the mar­ket pre­dict­ing $5,000 gold price when the gold price is 4,000. And at that point I’d be very, very con­cerned, but I don’t think that we’re there yet.

Tony Kynas­ton: I’ve seen a, I’ve noticed a cou­ple of min­ers. I can’t recall which ones, so pos­si­bly not ones that I own. They’ve start­ed to go un hedged, which is kind of like what you are say­ing. Just say­ing we think the gold price is going high­er.

Michael: Yeah,

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: I, I think we’ve seen that prob­a­bly for a cou­ple of years. Um. Yeah, look, it, it’s, it’s hard to know. You can say either they are insid­ers who know the mar­ket bet­ter than

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Michael: we should lis­ten to them. Or you can say they’re insid­ers. And insid­ers often make ter­ri­ble deci­sions at, uh, at peaks and troughs, and so we should­n’t lis­ten to them. It’s take your pick

Tony Kynas­ton: Okay.

Cameron: Don’t get high on your own sup­ply, as Scar­face said, or some­body said in Scar­face. Yeah.

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm. And speak­ing of sit­u­a­tions, your lat­est quar­ter­ly report, uh, went into AI in depth. So, [00:15:00] and I guess from a val­ue per­spec­tive, what, what are your takes on the whole AI bub­ble cir­cu­lar econ­o­my or, you know, next, next hori­zon for mankind that’s going on at the moment?

Michael: I, I think that AI is a fas­ci­nat­ing, um, con­ver­sa­tion. Uh, but I think that peo­ple get car­ried away a lit­tle bit when they start talk­ing about it as if AI was actu­al­ly arti­fi­cial intel­li­gence rather than just a tool that is real­ly good at col­lat­ing read­ing, assess­ing data, rec­og­niz­ing pat­terns, and then feed­ing you back best prac­tices or, or, or con­sen­sus feed­back. Um, I, I, I think that. What’s his names? Uh, Sun­day Pache, CEO of Google said that he thinks that AI will be as rev­o­lu­tion­ary as fire and elec­tric­i­ty. I think it’s prob­a­bly right. Um, I for­get who I saw it source from, but I, I recall read­ing, um, some­where that, uh, they were com­par­ing AI to

Tony Kynas­ton: [00:16:00] Mm-hmm.

Michael: not, not that it by itself nec­es­sar­i­ly. Um. I mean, it by itself will add tremen­dous val­ue. But the, you know, the, where we’ll add the most val­ue is, is, is how it dri­ves new economies, how it dri­ves new out­comes, how it dri­ves new effi­cien­cies. And so what comes out of AI is, I think, gonna be much more inter­est­ing from an invest­ment per­spec­tive and from a, from a well­be­ing per­spec­tive and from a human­i­ty per­spec­tive than the AI by itself, which at the moment I think is real­ly just a real­ly, real­ly good algo­rithm. That might be a bit sim­ple, but that, that’s where I see it at the moment. I.

Tony Kynas­ton: How, what’s your take on the fact that every time I open an annu­al report this year, it’s got AI some­where in the para­graphs? I mean, is it, are we too ear­ly to see any sort of ben­e­fits in the gen­er­al run of the mill com­pa­ny, or is it com­ing or, or what’s your take on that?

Michael: Look, I, I, I think it’s cer­tain­ly com­ing and, and you know, Cameron, I think you men­tioned that we wrote a bit. We wrote about some of the com­pa­nies, um, in our quar­ter­ly report, sev­en West, obvi­ous­ly the media, the media space that would be crazy not to use all the data they’ve been col­lect, col­lat­ing through their online, um, through their online [00:17:00] offer­ings to bet­ter tar­get adver­tise­ment.

Now, again, in the old­en days, you might’ve, you know, you might’ve said that was an algo­rithm. Nowa­days you can, you can use AI to grab such mas­sive Mabb, such mas­sive chunks of data that you can get bet­ter out­comes and bet­ter tai­lor make, um, your, your, your tar­get­ed, your tar­get­ed, uh, adver­tis­ing. Um. You know, we, we men­tioned in our quar­ter report that we had some expo­sure to, to, to, to sky enter­tain­ment. So, you know, sky Enter­tain­ment assess­es, gam­bler behav­ior to iden­ti­fy prob­lem gam­bling so that they can, they can be in line with, uh, with reg­u­la­to­ry expec­ta­tions and cut it off. nec­es­sary. I, I think that AI is going to play a part, um, in every­body’s life going for­ward. Um, and I think it’s inevitable.

I think it’s inevitable in much in, in much same way that the Indus­tri­al Rev­o­lu­tion changed the way we went about our day-to-day lives. I think to some extent this will have a sim­i­lar impact. Um, now that can be scary, cer­tain­ly. In some regards. Um, but it can also be very excit­ing to [00:18:00] think, you know, what the world would look like going for­wards giv­en these mas­sive effi­cien­cies.

And these, the, the abil­i­ty to cheap­ly imple­ment best prac­tices for every mom and dad, you know, shop on every cor­ner. Um, it’s, it’s a fab­u­lous, fab­u­lous tool if used prop­er­ly. And I think

Tony Kynas­ton: So

Michael: if you wan­na keep up.

Tony Kynas­ton: are, are you there­fore ascrib­ing an extra val­ue to sev­en West Media or Sky Um, because they’ve got the abil­i­ty to use data or, or you know, where does it fit into your val­u­a­tion mod­el?

Michael: There, there’s no spe­cif­ic part of our val­u­a­tion mod­el that relies on or has an expec­ta­tion that a, a AI should play a part. Uh, that being said, I think that any com­pa­ny that does not imple­ment AI in some way in their busi­ness mod­el, they’re going to be left behind. Um, I, I, I, I sup­pose your ques­tion is, if it’s adding effi­cien­cies, can we pre­dict bet­ter earn­ings going for­ward than what

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: seen in the past? I don’t know. I, I don’t know, because I sus­pect that. If you are [00:19:00] doing it, if you are try­ing to dri­ve effi­cien­cies, but all of your com­peti­tors are also try­ing to die of effi­cien­cies. It may be a a, a net zero sum game. Um,

Tony Kynas­ton: a cost.

Michael: or, or, or poten­tial­ly cost. Again, I, I dun­no that AI is that expen­sive. Um, I think a lot of these com­pa­nies are already pay­ing for data, um, and I’m not sure that AI is nec­es­sar­i­ly gonna add a sub­stan­tial cost in the long run.

In the ear­ly, in the ear­ly. Per­haps now it will add val­ue, um, at a cost at some point. I think it’ll be wid­get ized or com­modi­tized. Um, so that it’s expect­ed that every­body should use it and it prob­a­bly won’t add a tremen­dous amount of val­ue. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s real­ly the same thing with the Nvidia of the world, the Nvidia and the um, the Ora­cles and the snowflakes.

And local­ly you’ve got com­pa­nies like, um, next DC and a all of those guys. Have quite by acci­dent, ben­e­fit­ed tremen­dous­ly from, from, from, from the, from the ramp up of ai. Um, and they’ve def­i­nite­ly got a first mover [00:20:00] advan­tage. But at some point, um, you know, even amongst the AI providers, you know, if you look at, if you look at, uh, Chat­G­PT or you look at per­plex­i­ty, or you look at any of the oth­er ones, they might have a. Mover advan­tage, but even­tu­al­ly it feels to me like it’s gonna become some­what com­modi­tized. So yes, def­i­nite­ly first mover advan­tage. Yes, def­i­nite­ly. If you’re an ear­ly adapter, uh, adopter rather, you’ve prob­a­bly got some advan­tage, but even­tu­al­ly I think it’ll become an expec­ta­tion.

Tony Kynas­ton: It’s like a hygiene fac­tor for just being in busi­ness real­ly, isn’t it?

Michael: Yeah, I mean, I think so. And you’d be mad not to try and take advan­tage.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, sure. So, you know, you men­tioned sort of unin­tend­ed con­se­quences or sec­ondary con­se­quences there. What about on the eco­nom­ic side? Are you, are you envis­ag­ing any sort of, uh, dis­lo­ca­tion because of unem­ploy­ment? For exam­ple, when AI becomes wide­spread?

Michael: That’s a good ques­tion, Tony, and we’re actu­al­ly talk­ing about it at lunch on Fri­day. We had a a, a, you know, in our office we have lunch togeth­er every Fri­day and we talk about, the rule is no work talk, but some­times we get into tan­gen­tial work relat­ed stuff and we’re talk­ing about AI this, this past week.

[00:21:00] And I think the chal­lenge, any­time you’re expe­ri­enc­ing change is it’s very, very easy to rec­og­nize and iden­ti­fy what the cost is and what you’re going to lose. It’s very, very hard to iden­ti­fy what the ben­e­fits are gonna be. And I found myself think­ing, um, you know, if, if, if we com­pare our­selves to, you know, my grand­par­ents era, the, the era that came out of World War II and, and set up and, and rebuild our lives here, and I think of my grand­par­ents and, and, and won­der what would my grand­moth­er have thought when, when, you know, she, she worked in what we would call today a sweat shop. Um, doing sewing for, for local­ly made, you know, dress­es and. Jumpers and what­ev­er it was. What would she have thought at the time when we, when we expe­ri­enced some seri­ous glob­al­iza­tion and those sorts of roles went over­seas, she would’ve prob­a­bly been fright­ened out of her mind and, you know, con­cerned for what the future would look like.

But if you fast for­ward now with the ben­e­fit of hind­sight, you know, the way that our grand­par­ents and our great-grand­par­ents lived com­pared to where we are today, it’s incom­pa­ra­ble. It’s incom­pa­ra­ble how

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: off [00:22:00] we are today, even giv­en all of that change. And I think we’ll prob­a­bly find the same thing, you know. I we’ll find that it’s scary to make a tran­si­tion. I’m sure the peo­ple who, uh, made sad­dles for hors­es, and I’m sure the peo­ple who are the town expert at build­ing horse drawn car­riages were very, very fright­ened when cars came about, when the com­bus­tion engine was used in, in auto­mo­biles. But I think if you look at the, the wider world, no one’s going to argue we aren’t bet­ter off.

And I think the same will prob­a­bly hap­pen with ai. Will there be some tur­bu­lence while we go through the, the, that that teething peri­od? have no doubt what that will look like. I have no clue. But I’m sure that when we get to the oth­er side with the effi­cien­cies that this sort of data assess­ing tool can do, um, I think we’ll all be bet­ter off for it.

Tony Kynas­ton: So, so the

Michael: either that or the machines will con­trol the world.

Tony Kynas­ton: So do you see AI as, as, as kind of like just a, a, a fifth gear on data usage, or do you see it as being. You know, the, the super intel­li­gence that [00:23:00] blasts our to do things our­selves out­ta the water,

Michael: I.

I, don’t know if, I don’t know enough to not know, but

Tony Kynas­ton: right?

Michael: of AI is that it con­sumes a tremen­dous amount of data and that it finds pat­terns. So for, for, for exam­ple, for exam­ple. When you go shop­ping on Ama­zon and you buy meat pies the bot­tom, it will say, peo­ple who bought meat pies also bought sausage rolls and toma­to sauce. Now, the AI might not know why you’d buy toma­to sauce with your meat pie, but it rec­og­nizes the pat­tern and it calls it out, right? Ai, as far as I under­stand, does­n’t cre­ate any­thing new. So for exam­ple, if you asked ai, back to my anal­o­gy about, uh, about, uh. Horse-drawn carts. If you asked AI back in the day, how do I improve my, my, my man­u­fac­tur­ing of horse-drawn carts, it would give you best prac­tices for how to make and sell horse-drawn carts.

It would not sug­gest that you invent the com­bus­tion [00:24:00] engine and. into, into a car. If you, if in the, in the, in the 1990s, I think it was 1990s, if, uh, if you asked AI to help you build a bet­ter phone, it would’ve built you a Nokia that was inde­struc­tible and water­proof and would nev­er break, and per­haps a bet­ter bat­tery.

It would not have cre­at­ed for you a Black­ber­ry or ulti­mate­ly an iPhone. So, so I, I think, I think it’s impor­tant to rec­og­nize that while AI at the moment at least mim­ics. Human behav­ior very, very well. It’s not actu­al­ly cre­ative, you know, I was talk­ing about again, Fri­day lunchtime, we were talk­ing about mim­ic­k­ing, um, you know, mim­ic­k­ing looks like real­i­ty. And, um, Andrew, who you met ear­li­er, who’s a big­ger music afi­ciona­do, he said, Michael, do you remem­ber the Band Rock set from the 1980s? 1990s? Yeah. Yeah. Joy Ride. Dan­ger­ous. You know, enjoyed it as a young­ster. He’s like, he said, he. read some­where in an arti­cle that at the time they were record­ing [00:25:00] their ear­ly albums, they did­n’t actu­al­ly speak Eng­lish. And so instead they would translit­er­ate their songs into Swedish and they would sing it in Swedish with the words com­ing out being Eng­lish words. And that’s a bit like how I imag­ine ai. AI might sound intel­li­gent. AI might be able to pro­duce things that seem intel­li­gent, but ulti­mate­ly it’s translit­er­at­ing.

Ulti­mate­ly, it does­n’t real­ly under­stand what it’s say­ing. It’s just iden­ti­fy­ing pat­terns and shar­ing them back with us. And again, pat­tern recog­ni­tion. It’s fab­u­lous and impor­tant and adds, you know, adds tremen­dous amount of val­ue. But it’s impor­tant to dis­tin­guish between pat­tern recog­ni­tion and cre­ativ­i­ty.

I think cer­tain­ly in my under­stand­ing of where AI is at at the moment, it’s not cre­at­ing, it’s just rec­og­niz­ing.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, inter­est. Inter­est­ing. We can prob­a­bly talk for hours on the phi­los­o­phy of all this.

Cameron: I’m, I’m delib­er­ate­ly, I’m delib­er­ate­ly not enter­ing this con­ver­sa­tion. Yeah,

Tony Kynas­ton: whether to invite you in. I’m just gonna ask one more ques­tion then I can invite you in Cam.

Cameron: no,

Tony Kynas­ton: back to mar­kets, what. the, the can, I dun­no if we record­ed those statute you had before about the growth [00:26:00] of the US mar­ket and how much was attrib­uted to but a large amount of the growth in the US mar­ket is attrib­uted to

Cameron: I’ve got the.

Tony Kynas­ton: do you think hap­pens when you know the, that comes off its peak? Does it flow through to the Aus­tralian mar­ket? And do you fore­see any posi­tion­ing you might do to mit­i­gate that when that hap­pens?

Michael: I’m not sure because is your ques­tion. Assum­ing that AI relat­ed com­pa­nies are expen­sive, what hap­pens when they cor­rect or are you

Tony Kynas­ton: Yes.

Michael: and its effect on broad­er mar­kets

Tony Kynas­ton: No, the first one. Okay.

Michael: look, I mean, there’s no ques­tion that the Aus­tralian mar­ket is impact­ed by by US mar­kets even, even when we should­n’t be, we tend to be, and so if you see a big pull­back in, in, in those stocks, espe­cial­ly the ones. That are tan­gen­tial­ly into ai, the Mag­nif­i­cent sev­en. None of them are direct­ly ai. In fact, I don’t think there’s an AI com­pa­ny that is uh, a pure play AI com­pa­ny that’s list­ed, but cer­tain­ly they’ve got­ten a lot of their growth and a lot of their hype off of [00:27:00] jump­ing on the AI band­wag­on. If they come back, it’ll impact the broad­er US mar­kets, and that’ll cer­tain­ly impact us as well in terms of pro­tect­ing our­selves from it. I dun­no what you do except for invest­ing in good qual­i­ty com­pa­nies that are absurd­ly cheap.

Tony Kynas­ton: would­n’t, for exam­ple, start buy­ing gov­ern­ment bonds when you think things are very over­val­ued in the us

Michael: That’s an easy ques­tion for me ’cause that’s out­side of my man­date. You know,

Tony Kynas­ton: right.

Michael: us to give them their equi­ty expo­sure. And so that’s what

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Michael: is. Um, I think that if we fled to gov­ern­ment bonds every time some­thing made us ner­vous. Um, we launched this busi­ness in 2016. We would’ve been in gov­ern­ment bonds since 2017 and missed out in fab­u­lous return since then. So I, I think, I think you have to tem­per your expec­ta­tions and also you have

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Michael: tem­per, your con­cerns. Um. know, I think things are nev­er quite as good as they might seem at first, but things are also nev­er quite as bad as they might seem at first.

Tony Kynas­ton: No, fair enough. I agree. Cam, can I invite you in to talk about AI for a sec?

Cameron: No, that’s a real­ly bad idea. We’ll, we’ll nev­er, we’ll nev­er get out­ta here if I do that. Well, I I did have a [00:28:00] ques­tion though. Um, talk­ing about Sev­en West Media a few weeks ago, Michael, we had Gabrielle Radzin­sky from Send On Cap­i­tal on the show talk­ing about the Sev­en West merg­er with um, SXL, uh, which he is an activist against, uh, as an investor.

He does­n’t like the sound of it. As an investor in Sev­en West Media your­self, what do you think about the merg­er?

Michael: The only case I can make for it is that if sev­en West can get the, uh, PE mul­ti­ple, um. Through the merg­er, then it’s worth­while. But on the num­bers, it seems to me that this should have been 60 40 in favor of, uh, sev­en West at the least. but again, it, it, it does­n’t mat­ter what I think it mat­ters what’s gonna go ahead and what’s gonna hap­pen. Um, I think there are cer­tain­ly syn­er­gies for, for a com­bined com­pa­ny for sure. You take, you take com­peti­tors out­ta the mar­ket, then you can improve your mar­gins. I don’t like it. Um, I’m not sure there’s a ton we can do about it. I’m hope­ful that we’ll see a re-rat­ing from sev­en, which is cur­rent­ly trad­ing on some [00:29:00] ridicu­lous mul­ti­ple, like three and a half, four times.

So if all they get is a PE re-rat­ing through the merg­er, then maybe it’s worth it. But yeah, no, when I first saw the, saw the pro­pos­al, I was not too pleased be as diplo­mat­ic as I can pos­si­bly be.

Tony Kynas­ton: Did you, um, did you see it was the Chan­nel nine results last week that came out and said their com­mer­cial TV rev­enue was down some­thing like 18% for the last quar­ter, I think.

Michael: I, I did­n’t say that, but I did see sev­en say that the mar­ket had soft­ened.

Tony Kynas­ton: Oh, it was sev­en. Was it okay? I could, I could have that wrong. Sor­ry. Yep.

Michael: No, it, it could be. You’re right. I, I saw the sev­en, I saw an announce­ment from sev­en, but it could be that you’re right about nine as well. We actu­al­ly were won­der­ing whether, whether nine would come in and eat sev­en’s lunch in terms of this

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm.

Michael: uh.

I, I dun­no that I’d say we’re hope­ful that they would, but, um, sur­prised that it has­n’t hap­pened yet, I sup­pose is fair.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, fair enough. Um, back, back onto the ai, I guess. And its effect on the mar­ket. We, as, as you know, we, we run a US show with [00:30:00] its own port­fo­lio that tracks our, our buys and sells and, uh, it’s, it’s doing at at least mar­ket for, for a while there it was doing three times the mar­ket, with­out hav­ing any AI stocks in it and Mag sev­en stocks in It seems to me that. If all the mon­ey grav­i­tates to the AI stocks, it does cre­ate val­ue oppor­tu­ni­ties and some pret­ty good com­pa­nies in the rest of the mar­ket. Are you start­ing to see that over there or even in Aus­tralia to a cer­tain extent.

Michael: Yeah, look, I’m not sure that we’ve seen it in Aus­tralia. I think as far as. quite dif­fer­ent, um, in, in terms of how the mar­ket’s behaved. I think in Amer­i­ca, you, you, you have cer­tain­ly seen that you’ve seen the mag­nif­i­cent sev­en take a tremen­dous amount of atten­tion and cap­i­tal flows, and we have found that, that there is a, a, a mas­sive pool of under­val­ued and I sup­pose. research stocks in the US and in the glob­al mar­kets. Our focus here, um, is the Aussie mar­kets, but as part of our research, we do look glob­al­ly and who knows, you [00:31:00] know, there’s a decent chance at some point in the future we will launch a glob­al fund as well. Um. But I think it’s, it’s, I, I think you’re right.

I think it’s, it’s unde­ni­able that when you get a tremen­dous amount of hype in one par­tic­u­lar sec­tor, it sucks away cap­i­tal from oth­er sec­tors. Um, and cre­ates almost a, uh, a, a two, a two pace mar­ket where, where all of a sud­den you’re, you’re being forced if you want to get expo­sure to Nvidia to pay 50 times earn­ings. Where­as, you know, if you can iden­ti­fy a man­u­fac­tur­ing com­pa­ny on sin­gle times, mul­ti­ples, uh. Yet, it can’t win. It can’t, it can’t find a bit in the broad­er mar­ket. So yes, I agree with you. I think, I think we saw that to some extent. Um, think local­ly with so much of the cash flows, the insti­tu­tion­al cash flows, going to com­pa­nies like Com­mon­wealth Bank, um, for such a long time, and also the top 20 in gen­er­al,

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Michael: you’ve seen our small and mid cap mar­ket com­plete­ly ignored for a long, long time.

I think that’s slow­ly start­ing to reverse a lit­tle bit now. Um, and I think you see the same thing in the US mar­kets.

Tony Kynas­ton: In, in the Aus­tralian sense, that also [00:32:00] exac­er­bat­ed a bit because, uh, of index invest­ing, so they’re forced to Comm­Bank and the bro­kers who were, or the fund man­agers who were cov­er­ing small caps in par­tic­u­lar have been hol­lowed out and not just not there now.

Michael: I’d like to say yes, Tony, but I don’t think it’s quite so sim­ple and, and the rea­son I say that is because it was just index buy­ing, you would see all of the top. which I think rep­re­sent about 60% of the ASX 200 all mov­ing up in tan­dem. And we did­n’t see that. Um, BHP has been pret­ty much flat. Um, CSL has done quite poor­ly.

Um, I’m not even sure if it’s in the top five any­more. It’s prob­a­bly close. Um, where­as Com­mon­wealth Bank, we’re doing fab­u­lous­ly. Well, I think it’s, I think it’s a com­bi­na­tion of two things. I think it’s num­ber one. There’s been a mas­sive flow of pas­sive invest­ing through the ETFs, and I think that has impact­ed the top 20 for sure. Um, but I think a com­pa­ny like, like, um, Com­mon­wealth Bank, like Com­mon­wealth Bank in par­tic­u­lar, is espe­cial­ly attrac­tive for the insti­tu­tions look­ing to park mon­ey, where they [00:33:00] need liq­uid­i­ty and they can feel safe hav­ing invest­ed in what feels like a safe stock. Um. I think beyond just the index invest­ing, I think Com­mon­wealth, Com­mon­wealth Bank ben­e­fit­ed from Indus, sor­ry, from insti­tu­tion­al flows, look­ing for some­where where they can get some, um, some liq­uid­i­ty in the Aussie mar­kets.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, right. Cam, I think I’ve gone through my list of ques­tions. Do you have any­thing to add for Michael? Yes.

Cameron: No, I guess we’ve cov­ered every­thing that I want­ed to talk about. Um, I did, just talk­ing about the AI stuff though, I did have a news item today. I, I have men­tioned, I’m not sure if it was on our US show, but um, on one of my shows, uh, recent­ly that Jerome Pow­ell, when he put out his lat­est jobs report, said that there’s, uh, a big freeze on hir­ing.

In the US, they’re call­ing it the Great Freeze. A lot of com­pa­nies are just not hir­ing uni­ver­si­ty [00:34:00] grad­u­ates because they expect AI to be able to do their jobs in the next cou­ple of years. And I just saw this morn­ing the Depart­ment of Indus­try Sci­ence and Resources report­ed that tech employ­ment in Aus­tralia dropped by over 30,000 roles in FY 25, reduc­ing the tech work­force to 949,000, the first decline since 2020.

And again. AI tak­ing these jobs is the main rea­son that’s being giv­en. So, you know, we, we have, um, been wait­ing to see job loss­es cred­it­ed to AI tak­ing peo­ple’s jobs. Haven’t seen a lot of that in this coun­try yet, but we are see­ing com­pa­nies say­ing, well, we’re not gonna both­er hir­ing peo­ple because we assume that AI is gonna be able to step in and fill that role.

And I find it dif­fi­cult. You know, we, you were talk­ing about sad­dle man­u­fac­tur­ers and, uh, your grand­moth­er, um, and those jobs for the [00:35:00] last cou­ple of years. I do a, a show called the Futur­is­tic, where we, we look at all of this stuff each week. We look at AI and robot­ics most­ly the chal­lenge that I have when think­ing about, um, the next 10 years is try­ing to fig­ure out what jobs.

Will be avail­able that AI and robots won’t be able to do bet­ter than a human. I’ve spent a cou­ple of years try­ing to fig­ure that out because you know, in every tech rev­o­lu­tion that we’ve had since the indus­tri­al rev­o­lu­tion, the new tech­nol­o­gy has wiped out some jobs, but replaced it with oth­er jobs. But we’re mov­ing into this era where it’s very hard to work out what the jobs are that aren’t gonna be able to be done bet­ter, faster, cheap­er.

With the com­bi­na­tion of AI and humanoid robots. So I am a lit­tle bit con­cerned about kids going to uni­ver­si­ty right now, uh, what the job mar­ket is gonna look like [00:36:00] for them when they get out in the next few years, and the impact that’s gonna have on a whole gen­er­a­tion of 18 to 23 year olds, you know.

Michael: No, Cameron. I agree. I think it’s gonna be most tough for the junior work­force. I think. I think peo­ple are look­ing for the first job. Even if, if, I mean, I imag­ine in white col­lar rolls like account­ing C and, and, and in law, a lot of the jobs that you would give a first year uni, um,

Cameron: Hmm.

Michael: the, the

Cameron: Cod­ing.

Michael: you, par­don me.

Cameron: Hmm. Oh, so cod­ing, just tech jobs obvi­ous­ly is the first to go

Michael: All, all sorts of

Cameron: jour­nal­ism.

Michael: yeah.

Cameron: Hmm.

Michael: of things that you would get your junior, you know, asso­ciate to, to, to run down infor­ma­tion or look up case stud­ies or, or, you know, run down some paper­work. All that sort of stuff is gonna be by, um, man­aged by ai. Per­haps you’ll need, you know, one. One employ­ee, um, over­see­ing, you know, an AI machine that can do the job of five or 10. Um, I, I won­der how quick­ly it’s gonna impact estab­lished [00:37:00] roles. I, I won­der how much val­ue there is in cre­ativ­i­ty and rec­og­niz­ing out­side of pat­terns. Again, I, I, I think. I think AI is excep­tion­al at iden­ti­fy­ing, um, sta­tus quo and pat­terns and, and, and what works nor­mal­ly. I think there’s still, I think there’s still a space for human­i­ty, hope­ful­ly, um, in iden­ti­fy­ing things that are out­side of the norm. Um. Oppor­tu­ni­ties that, that, that stand out because they are not stan­dard. Um, and, and I think you’ll find, I think you’ll find that in pro­fes­sion­al ser­vices, there’ll be a place for that sort of think­ing for some time.

But ulti­mate­ly, you know, as I, as AI gets smarter and as it’s, you know, as it’s data­base grows, um, I think mak­ing a dis­tinc­tion between. Human enter­prise and AI enter­prise will become increas­ing­ly dif­fi­cult. My my wor­ry or won­der is if [00:38:00] AI is draw­ing from this mas­sive data set we call the world­wide web, which is essen­tial­ly all of human­i­ty’s best efforts. Um, saved. Saved in the cloud. What hap­pens at some point in the future where they’re draw­ing from the dataset that is major­i­ty ai, um, cre­at­ed? Is it like the snake eat­ing its own tail? Is it going to cre­ate all sorts of unin­tend­ed con­se­quences? I don’t know, but that seems like a prob­lem for anoth­er day. I.

Cameron: They call it the, the dead inter­net the­o­ry. It’s, uh, the inter­net is being pro­duced by, it’s already hap­pen­ing. Some­thing like 50% of the con­tent on the inter­net now has been pro­duced by ai, not by humans. So we’re already start­ing to see the, is it Ura? Boro

Tony Kynas­ton: Ords.

Cameron: the snake Ro yeah. The snake eat­ing its own tail.

Michael: Say­ing, I

Cameron: Yeah.

Michael: wor­ry about it now. Cameron,

Cameron: No, well wor­ry. It’s a, it’s a bit like the sev­en West merg­er. Um, it’s gonna hap­pen.

Michael: you can do, right?

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah.

Cameron: This no bud­get, like [00:39:00] it’s, and it’s also my per­spec­tive about the, uh, the col­lapse of the Mag sev­en or the poten­tial col­lapse of the AI mar­ket. Yeah. What Tony’s taught me over the last six years from an invest­ing per­spec­tive is we deal with real­i­ty when it hap­pens.

We don’t prog­nos­ti­cate, we don’t have a crys­tal ball. We just deal with it the best we can as it hap­pens, right. So,

Michael: Yeah,

Tony Kynas­ton: You play the cards

Cameron: no.

Michael: yeah, prog­nos­ti­ca­tion is where the most fun con­ver­sa­tions hap­pen. But if

Tony Kynas­ton: it is, yeah.

Michael: mon­ey and we’re talk­ing about liv­ing our lives, you’ve got­ta deal with what’s in front of you today.

Tony Kynas­ton: Cor­rect.

Cameron: Yeah.

that’s all you can do.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah.

Cameron: Well, Michael, I think that’s all we have for you. Thanks so much. Con­grat­u­la­tions on the con­tin­ued suc­cess of Collins Street Asset Man­age­ment and, uh, hope it’s not three years before we get back on. We’ll have to get you back on for anoth­er update in a year or so.

Michael: And Tony, always thrilled to hang out with you guys.

Tony Kynas­ton: Michael. Good to see you again.

Cameron: Cheers, Michael.

Bernard: Q A V is a check­list-based sys­tem of val­ue invest­ing devel­oped by Tony  Khyne­ston. over 25 years. To learn more about how it [00:40:00] works and how you can learn the sys­tem, vis­it our web­site, Q A V Pod­cast dot com dot A U.

This pod­cast is an infor­ma­tion provider and in giv­ing you prod­uct infor­ma­tion we are not mak­ing any sug­ges­tion or rec­om­men­da­tion about a par­tic­u­lar prod­uct. The infor­ma­tion has been pre­pared with­out tak­ing into account your indi­vid­ual invest­ment objec­tives, finan­cial cir­cum­stances or needs. Before you decide whether or not to acquire a par­tic­u­lar finan­cial prod­uct you should assess whether it is appro­pri­ate for you in the light of your own per­son­al cir­cum­stances, hav­ing regard to your own objec­tives, finan­cial sit­u­a­tion and needs. You may wish to obtain finan­cial advice from a suit­ably qual­i­fied advis­er before mak­ing any deci­sion to acquire a finan­cial prod­uct. Please note that all infor­ma­tion about per­for­mance returns is his­tor­i­cal. Past per­for­mance should not be relied upon as an indi­ca­tor of future per­for­mance; unit prices and the val­ue of your [00:41:00] invest­ment may fall as well as rise. The results are gen­er­al advice only and not per­son­al prod­uct advice.

Trans­paren­cy is impor­tant to us. We will always be very open and hon­est about the stocks we own. We will also always give our audi­ence advance notice when we intend to buy or sell a stock that we are going to talk about on the pod­cast. This is so we can nev­er be accused of pump­ing a stock to our own advan­tage. If we talk about a stock we cur­rent­ly own, we will make it known that we own it.

This email is autho­rised by Antho­ny  Khyne­ston. Autho­rised Rep­re­sen­ta­tive Num­ber zero zero 1 2 9 2 7 1 8 of M F & Co. Asset Man­age­ment Pro­pri­etary Lim­it­ed (A F S L five 2 zero 4 4 2).
No part of this con­tent may be repro­duced in any form with­out the pri­or con­sent of Space­craft Pub­lish­ing.

Quote of the day: “Hope of gain Lessens pain.” “Poor Richard’s Almanack”, Ben­jamin Franklin