QAV 623 CLUB

Cameron  00:06
And we’re back. QAV 623. June the sixth, 2:17 pm on the West Coast. No East Coast. Which coast are we on again?

Tony  00:17
East Coast.

Cameron  00:18
How are you, TK? I knew that.

Tony  00:22
Really well. Good, thank you.

Cameron  00:23
That’s good. How was Wagga?

Tony  00:25
Fantastic.

Cameron  00:27
Got some golf in?

Tony  00:27
Yeah, well, actually, the weather was really good. A bit like Sydney; it was sort of 20 degrees. The days are pretty short, the nights are cold, but the days are lovely, lovely and sunny.

Cameron  00:37
You got to watch a spider.

Tony  00:38
Yeah, as I was telling you, I saw a spider eating an insect, which was absolutely chilling to watch. It just moseys on over near the web, got caught. Spider comes down, completely cocoons it in about 30 seconds, pulls it up starts to eat. It was just… oof. Nature is chilling sometimes.

Cameron  00:55
That reminds me of Tom giving Shiv the scorpion gift in Succession. I want to do a shout out to Warren, one of our relatively new club members. Had a good zoom session with Warren last night and walked him through building a checklist and that kind of stuffed. Over in WA. RBA today, Tony. The market was up yesterday, briefly. And then everyone said, “oh, the RBA is probably going to announce another rate rise.” Has it happened yet? What’s it like? 2:00, isn’t it, normally?

Tony  01:28
No. 2:30.

Cameron  01:30
Oh, 2:30.

Tony  01:31
Yeah, we’re about to find out.

Cameron  01:33
We should have recorded later, waited ten minutes.

Tony  01:34
Yeah, well, we’ll know during the recording. I’d be surprised if they don’t. And you know, we bang this drum all the time about interest rates being a blunt instrument, but someone should go back — and perhaps they do in the RBA — go back and just see how effective raising interest rates is. Like we’re in this cycle now of wage growth, and that’s one of the reasons why I think interest rates will go up. Wages are going up because of inflation, which is also being pushed up because of interest rates. Rents are going up, and the cost of doing almost everything’s going up because of interest rates, which is forcing wages up. So, the problem isn’t wages by itself or interest rates by itself. Inflation is being caused by energy, so the Ukraine war amongst other things, and supply chain issues as a hangover from COVID. At least the supply chain one starts to resolve itself. But why put up interest rates? It just makes it worse. So, I’d like to know if there’s any analysis which shows that raising interest rates is actually helping in the circumstance, because it’s almost the fiscal problem that the government’s trying to alleviate, at least on the EG side, by providing some subsidies and capping prices. They can’t do much about supply chain, I guess, but that should resolve itself. So, it’s almost like a vicious cycle. Interest rates go up, wages go up; wages go up, interest rates go up. It’s a very blunt instrument. So, I hope someone at the RBA is looking at that.

Cameron  02:56
It’s the James Bond of economics.

Tony  03:01
Why’s that, Miss Moneypenny?

Cameron  03:03
A more recent James Bond. The first of the Daniel Craig films, M says to him, I think it’s the first one: “I realise you’re a blunt instrument, Bond, and I don’t expect you to understand. But try to stop blowing people up in the least.” Dame Judi

Tony  03:21
Dame Judi, yeah.

Cameron  03:22
I tell you what’s not going up, Tony, are houses by the sounds of it. Because builders are going bust, apparently. Did you see this in the ABC today?

Tony  03:31
No. I haven’t seen it in the ABC, but I’ve been watching it for the last six months. We were talking about it last year when the first of them started to go broke, but now it’s getting worse. And it’s because, as we said last year, they’ve got contracts with fixed prices, but their inputs are going up and they just can’t make money.

Cameron  03:48
Yeah, my mate Tony Ashwin, who’s a builder down in the Gold Coast, when they started to go down, he said, “you wait, man. This is just the beginning of it.” And he was right. This is in the ABC today: “How did the construction industry enter an insolvency crisis and how can it get out?” It says, “Phil Dwyer, President of the Builders Collective of Australia and builder of forty years’ experience says the insolvency crisis in the construction industry is a nationwide problem. He says currently there’s a great escalation in solvencies. The data bears this out. According to ASIC, 1709 construction companies entered administration between July ’22 and APR ’23, up from 1284 in the same period twelve months earlier. Dwyer traces the current insolvency crisis back to the home builder grant, which was introduced by the Morison government in June 2020, as part of its economic response to the COVID 19 pandemic. The program offered a $25,000 grant to owner-occupiers who signed eligible contracts between June 4 and December 31, 2020, or a $15,000 grant for eligible contracts signed between January 1 and March 31 2021. As a stimulus measure it worked too well. As Tim Lawless, Research Director from Core Logic, told ABC Melbourne’s “The Conversation Hour” in 2022, homebuilders became oversubscribed as people rushed to sign contracts before applications closed. By February 2023, the scheme had received 138,000 applications and distributed $2.52 billion in grants. Dwyer says introducing the home builder scheme into an already heated industry created a volume of work that has proved unmanageable for the nation’s builders. ‘The government should never have done it,’ he says. Two years on, supply chain issues and inflation caused by factors such as COVID-19, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and labour shortages have created a crisis. Builders operating on fixed price contracts who cannot pass on increased costs to customers have been hardest hit, with the price of raw materials such as steel and timber increasing between 40 and 50% during the pandemic. Many operators have simply run out of money to finish projects.”

Tony  06:09
That is exactly what’s happening, and it’s to my point. That’s one of the problems at the moment: inflation. You know, builders are facing inflationary issues, and they’ve got fixed price contracts. So, let’s put interest rates up! It’s just not the answer. It really isn’t. The government… When I talk about fiscal policy, I’m talking about what the government can do, and I haven’t heard of any activity yet. But it should be focusing on the industry, because builders collapsing means unemployment in the sector, and that’s going to be a recessionary drag on the economy, if it’s not happening already. Or even pretty soon. But yeah, the solution: put interest rates up. It’s not the solution. It makes it worse.

Cameron  06:48
Maybe be we should get somebody from the RBA on the show. You know anyone in your highfalutin circles that you mix in?

Tony  06:56
I know an ex-member or two but I’m not sure they’ll come on.

Cameron  07:02
Really? Why not? Moving right along. Steven Mabb, Chairman Mabb of the Australian Shareholders Association, came down from his ivory tower to call me last week. He heard us complain on the show, heard me complain on the show last week that the light portfolios have taken a hit because I’m sitting on all this cash and I can’t spend it, and suggested we could park our cash in some ETFs. He suggested particularly Beta Shares ETF AAA, which he said pays 4% less a 0.2 management fee, or in VanEck TBIL, 4.5% US Treasury bills. So, at least you’d be getting-it’s not a lot, but at least you’d be getting a couple of points on your cash while you sit there and wait for something to buy. And he said the good thing about these things is you can sell them when you want cash to invest. What are your thoughts on putting our money in ETFs when we can’t buy anything for long periods of time?

Tony  08:03
I don’t know. I’m not familiar with these two. I had a look at them this morning as I was prepping for the show. How long are we holding the cash for in the light portfolios?

Cameron  08:11
I can’t say, but I’d say for a month we’ve been sitting, maybe more, on a lot of cash. I get to buy a couple of things here and there, but, you know. I got to spend some this week, but I had to buy double parcels in a couple of things when GNC and KAR became buys this week with crude oil and wheat becoming buys again, which we’ll talk about later in the show. But most of the portfolios, the light portfolios, have been sitting on between 20 and 40% cash for weeks and weeks and weeks.

Tony  08:45
Oh well, if that’s the case, if it’s more than a month then it’s worthwhile. I had a look at the these two ETFs that Steve recommended, and the first one, which is called-the stock code’s AAA, pays a dividend monthly, so that would make sense to invest in it. But you are taking risks because it’s still listed on the stock exchange, and the monthly dividend yield isn’t that great and it could be eaten up by a movement in the actual ETF share price. But it’s possibly a place to park it. I’d question Steve’s comment about 4% yield. I don’t think that’s the case with it at the moment.

Cameron  09:20
What happened to it when Steve called me on the 31st May? The share price had been going up and then it just fell off a cliff on the 31st of May. I mean, it’s only 10 cents out of 50 bucks, but still.

Tony  09:33
Yeah, the movements aren’t big. So, it may have just paid a dividend or something.

Cameron  09:38
It tends to do that. It seems to go up from the beginning of the month, it goes up to the end of the month and then it falls at the beginning of the next month. So, this is their monthly dividend, right?

Tony  09:49
Yeah, it pays a dividend. But I added up the last twelve months worth of monthly dividends and got roughly $1.25 on 50 bucks. So, it’s paying about 2.5% yield. On a monthly basis, if you divide that by twelve, it’s, you know, bugger all.

Cameron  10:04
So, you’re not really benefiting a great deal.

Tony  10:07
No. A couple of other points. I mean, in my personal case, I’ve just gone back into the market yesterday. Probably the same time you did with the dummy portfolio, because some things turned up — a couple of commodities turned up into buys. But there were also some other rises which I bought into. But I think I was only in cash for a couple of weeks at the most. And if I think back, the last time I was in cash was COVID, and that was perhaps a month at the most as well. So, I don’t tend to stay in cash very long. And that leads me to the last point — well, there’s a couple more points to make. When I do go into cash, it generally sits in an offset account. Unless it’s in my superfund or something like that, but it goes into an offset account. So, I’m saving mortgage interest on that. So, that’s worth more than putting them into these ETFs. But the other point is that these kinds of ETFs are something I was talking about a couple of weeks ago. I really want to highlight; I’ll call it the “reach for yield” which goes on in the market. If something’s offering a good yield, don’t ignore the risks. And so, the risk for these two ETFs: one is a US Treasury bills ETF, so you’ve got currency risk. I don’t know if they hedge, but if they hedge it’s coming at a cost and that reduces your dividend payments. But treasury bills are bonds, and bonds have been fairly volatile in the last six or twelve months as interest rates rise. And then there’s yield curve inversions and potential calamities. You can wake up the next day and the bonds may have moved quite a bit. So, you’re putting your capital at risk to get a monthly payout, which isn’t much. So, on a risk weighted basis, I’d be careful about going into these. Same with the Australian cash one. I’m not sure how it works, I haven’t researched it well enough, but again, currencies can move a fair bit, too, over the course of a month. So, I don’t know what the risks are with these. I would just hesitate without fully understanding the risks to put money into these kinds of ETFs. What might be worth looking at is putting them into… If we’re finding it’s hard to buy something, chances are that, you know, something like one of the short ETFs that one of our listeners was exploring about a year ago might be better off for us. You know, like those inverse index ETFs. That might prove better. But again, there’s a risk there, too. So, I’m not convinced that this is a good idea.

Cameron  12:32
I am looking at the other one, the VanEck TBIL — TBIL is the ASX code. It shows a bit of movement, too, but it’s like the other one. It sort of hovers between $50 and $51.5. $50.50 and $51.50. Not to be confused with the first Van Halen album with Sammy Hagar in 1986, 5150, which is apparently the LA Police Department’s code for, I think, a crazy person. That’s a 5150. Yeah, it goes up and down by 1%. I’m looking at the two-year chart on it. It seems to go up and down from, you know, as I said, $50.50 to $51.50. Not a lot of movement there but pays a little bit of a dividend.

Tony  13:22
Yeah, like I said, the risk may not be in that graph. What happened when the GFC was around? What happened during COVID? Probably more pertinent questions. Or at the start of the Ukraine war. I mean, bonds can move quite a lot.

Cameron  13:36
Well, this is just a one-to-three-month treasury bond by the looks of it. Like, their chart on the ASX only goes back to May, 19 of May. I don’t know how that works. Anyhow, you’re not a fan of the idea. So, what do I do? See, the difference between the light portfolio and your portfolio, the dummy portfolio, we’re not sitting on any cash in the dummy portfolio, but in the four light portfolios we’re sitting on, like, sixty/sixty-five shares, and they’re all recent, relatively new portfolios over the last year. So, you know, there’s been a lot of rule ones in there and, you know, 10% of them get rule oned, and you’ve got seventy stocks on the portfolios. That’s seven replacements, and there haven’t been seven stocks to buy for a long time. I tend to buy for the light portfolios one or two a week. If I’m lucky, I can find some. And usually, in the last few weeks, they’ve been second parcels of things that we already own. Or, you know, this week I ended up buying double parcels of KAR and GNC, just because I knew I was probably not going to get to offload that cash, you know, otherwise. So, I thought it’s better off having it in something rather than in nothing. We don’t have an offset account for the light portfolios. What will we do with it?

Tony  15:00
I’d just leave it in cash, Cam. I mean, if the stocks that we want to buy are going down, then the cash is actually going up in terms of its usefulness. So, even though we’re not earning interest on it.

Cameron  15:09
Sure, it just doesn’t look good in our comparative performance to the STW every month, because the STW is going up. And now cash isn’t.

Tony  15:19
Yeah, we could put some kind of notional earnings on cash. But I just think we have to where it.

Cameron  15:25
Wait for the turnaround, and we’ll all look good. Suck it up.

Tony  15:29
And so, just in recap for people who are having this problem themselves, or this issue themselves. The number one use of cash, I think, is to put it into an offset account, reduce your interest bill. Number two would be to put it into a bank deposit, depending on how much you have, because that’s government guaranteed. So, that’s risk free. Even if you’re only earning one or 2% a year, and you only have it in for a month so it’s buggerall, it’s still risk free. Putting it into ETFs, even though they might pay more, does come with some risk.

Cameron  15:55
Number three is to put it on Tony’s horse that’s running at Randwick this week.

Tony  16:01
I don’t have one racing at Randwick this week, but yeah, go Caste in the spring.

Cameron  16:07
Number four is to find your local friendly mobster and give it to him to put out with the vic.

Tony  16:14
No. I can tell you the cafe, though, to goes over and ask around.

Cameron  16:18
Yeah, I bet you can. It wasn’t that many years ago when I was pretty sure that’s what you did for a living. Part of the Irish mafia. The Ranga mafia in Sydney. Somebody else who is not waiting around is Myer’s CEO John King. Myer has announced that John King will retire from his role in the second half of calendar 2024 and will return to the US, because things are just going so well over there. He figured, you know, “I don’t want to miss out on this great Renaissance that’s happening in the US.” Not exactly in a hurry.

Tony  16:54
No. I think a hallmark of his tenure is he’s given eighteen months’ notice, or at least twelve months’ notice. So, the succession plan should go reasonably smoothly. But he’s been a terrific CEO, I’ve got to say, for Myer. And he’s faced a lot of difficulties, turned it round. I mean, their share price was down around 25 cents, I think, when he came in, and it’s now — even though it’s come off recently with all the problems with discretionary spending because of rising interest rates — it’s still at least double what it was when he came in. It sounds like he hasn’t been there for long, but he’s been there, I think, since about 2018. So, he will have served six years by the back end of 2024, which is kind of an average tenure for a CEO. He’s had Solly sniping at him the whole time and lots of board issues to try and manage. But he’s done a great job. He’s an experienced retailer, and I tip my hat to him. He’s done a great job.

Cameron  17:46
Myer’s share price five years ago was 40 cents, 40.5 cents, currently trading at 68 cents. Has been as high as $1.07 just back in March. But yes, come off quite a bit since then.

Tony  18:05
And what was its lows?

Cameron  18:07
Oh, COVID cough it dropped down to 10.5 cents. It’s sort of been growing nicely since then. I’ve done my time as a Myer shareholder, on and off. We own it in a couple of light portfolios. One’s up 14%, the other is up 18%. So, not taking over the world. But I remember when I owned it in my own portfolio at one point it was up like 100% and then it came all the way back down to its buy price. I was telling Warren about that in our chat last night. He was asking the old question that we always get about trailing stop losses and that kind of stuff, and I said, you know, explained your thinking around it. How if you stick to the rules with our sell triggers, more often than not it works in your favour. But you don’t remember the ones where it’s worked in your favour, because you didn’t sell it so you didn’t think about it. You only remember the ones where it went all the way back down to your buy price, and you got out and you’re just pissy about it. You don’t pay attention to the times when it actually works out in your favour unless you go back and do some sort of analysis. It’s funny how that works. Okay, so we talked about interest rate rises and wages. I saw this article in the Fin yesterday, I think. “Will DIY investors stay in love with the share market?” It’s by Jonathan Shapiro. “More than half of the population has a share portfolio but will high and rising interest rates force them to choose between stocks and property,” then going on about some event that somebody spoke at. Interesting here, it says — I think we’ve talked about this before — that, “1.2 million Australians have started investing in the share market since 2020,” I think nearly all of them listen to the show. “That means 10.2 million adults, or more than 51% of the population, have investments outside of superannuation or the family home, and increased from 46% in 2022.” That’s a big jump in one year. But they’re saying that with interest rates, the share market is going to struggle. People might feel like they’re better off putting money in property. They have the requisite mentioned to Scott Pape here. You can’t write an article in the Australian media about investing without talking about Scott Pape. It’s in his contract. He needs to be mentioned at every opportunity. And there needs to be the same photo of him with his bare feet in the camera, apparently. I don’t know why I need to see his feet every time they mentioned him, but somebody’s got a foot fetish like Quentin Tarantino out there.

Tony  20:56
It’s because he’s the Barefoot Investor.

Cameron  20:59
I know. But still. Do I have to see his feet every time they quote the book? Really?

Tony  21:04
Its in his contract?

Cameron  21:05
It’s in his contract. Yeah. Gotta show off the feet.

Tony  21:08
Trademarked.

Cameron  21:09
Good thing he didn’t call his book “the Bare Ass Investor”, they’d have to have a photo of his ass every time they talk about him. “Sorry, it’s in the contract.” Like living with Fox. So, he talks about… Somebody, I don’t know who this is here. Somebody who goes by the name of Mr Quick, who, “in February posed an intriguing question. If you had $200,000 to invest, what was the highest return you could achieve with the greatest certainty? The answer is north of 10%, but there is a caveat. The condition is that the individual has a mortgage over the family home. If that’s the case, and that person is in the top 45% tax bracket, based on current interest rates, any investment has to return more than 10.5% after tax to beat paying off your home loan. If one adjusts for risk premiums, that figure might be about 16%. The point is that there’s now extremely high opportunity cost to do anything with your money, including adding to your share portfolio, if you’re carrying debt. This will have implications for household balance sheets and equity markets. We’re now undeniably in an environment of higher interest rates, which few Australians have experienced.” So, it’s saying you’ve got to be getting at least 16% to make it worth your while, rather than just paying off your mortgage.

Tony  22:32
Yeah, if you factor in the risk premium.

Cameron  22:34
How many super funds in this country are returning an average of 16% per year?

Tony  22:40
Well, none.

Cameron  22:43
I think there’s a couple, but not many. Certainly not over the long term.

Tony  22:46
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, he makes a good point. It’s basically the point we’ve been making about rising interest rates. They affect the asset pricing of the growth stocks. The ones that, when interest rates are low or zero, you just throw some money into them. Its speculative, you can afford it. All that’s off the table now that you, you know, that every time you make an investment and you’ve got a mortgage, you need to beat that mortgage hurdle. So, the hurdle rate went up for people to invest. So, yeah. Less people are throwing money at or gambling with the stock market, is, I guess, the essence of the article. There are a few other things in there which I liked about only a small percentage of people using a financial planner, basically because of the costs. And I think that will improve. The government has to change the rules around that. But people have been talking about Robo advice for a long time now, the last four or five years, as being the solution. And that’s perhaps where your mate Chat GPT plays a role in providing off the shelf advice for people at a very cheap cost. So, I think that’s potentially on the horizon to solve that problem.

Cameron  23:53
I think there’s a smoke alarm.

Tony  23:55
Must be your sourdough bread.

Cameron  23:57
it’s the clothes dryer.

Tony  23:59
I can’t hear it.

Cameron  24:00
I thought Chrissy had set fire to the house while I’m in here, but it’s the clothes dryer making this high pitched whistling noise. Sorry about that.

Tony  24:06
It’s alright, I can’t hear it.

Cameron  24:08
Doesn’t matter if I burn to death, as long as you can’t hear it.

Tony  24:11
Yeah. You can get out in time, come on. You’ll Wing Chun your way through a window or a door or something.

Cameron  24:19
Hi-Ya! Venusian karate. That’s what the third Doctor knew, anyway.

Tony  24:25
John Pertwee, yeah.

Cameron  24:27
Venusian Judo I think it was, Venusian Judo. Sorry to interrupt there. Get back to the point.

Tony  24:32
Yeah, I agree with the article. And on top of all that, and this is probably, you know, a bit of a chicken and egg thing; if people are making that decision about whether they invest in the share market or pay off their mortgage, there’s less people in the share market. So, the share market doesn’t go up as quickly or maybe even comes down, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, again, this is one of the arguments where we see people selling out of the market at the wrong time and then getting back in at the wrong time.

Cameron  25:04
But according to that article every man and his dog is now investing in the Australian share market.

Tony  25:12
Was, I think, is what he’s saying.

Cameron  25:14
Well, he said the numbers were up.

Tony  25:16
This year, or up until this year?

Cameron  25:19
I don’t think its up until.

Tony  25:21
Okay, so the thrust of the article is, will they stay?

Cameron  25:23
I think so, yeah. He’s saying that “51% of the population have investments outside of superannuation or the family home, an increase from 46% in 2022.” So, there’s an extra 5% of the population who are invested in it this year. He’s linking to a study quoted in the Fin on May 30, so a week ago: “pandemic frenzy spawns 1.2 million new Australian investors” by Lucy Dean. So, saying that a whole tonne of people are investing. “‘Women accounted for 50% of the new investors and also made up 50% of those intending to invest,’ ASX Senior Manager Rory Cunningham told the Stockbrokers and Investment Advisors Association.” I wonder if he then told everyone to sell the shares in the ASX? Because it’s not having a good day, the ASX itself.

Tony  26:23
No, well they just came out and said CHESS wouldn’t be replaced for twelve years.

Cameron  26:28

I read through that story this morning to try and figure out who was the main IT contractor who was pitching the whole, “oh, we’ll do it on blockchain. It’s all going to be great. Don’t you worry about it.”

Tony  26:48
Wasn’t Chinese Walls, was it?

Cameron  26:50
Well, I don’t know. But there was no mention. I don’t know if it was all, you know, a completely internal build — which would be rare these days, I think. Companies don’t tend to have huge IT departments like that.

Tony  27:02
No, they partnered with a blockchain installer/assembler. I don’t know what you’d call it. A blockchain company. I forget who they were.

Cameron  27:12
I could think of other words I could use, but I’d probably get sued. Anyway, back to “women are 50% of new investors.” Well, you know, we did a show about getting more women investing, and obviously it paid off. So, you’re welcome, females out there.

Tony  27:30
It is good to see. They should be making up 50% of investing, or investors.

Cameron  27:35
Well, the head of Research at Investment Trends, Irene Guiamatsia, said that “while women made up 50% of new investors, the percentage of overall investors who were female had not moved from 42% since 2020.” Still, 42% is a lot higher than I would have guessed. I thought it was like 10%. 42%.

Tony  27:58
Yeah.

Cameron  27:58
That’s pretty good. Good on ya ladies, well done. My question was going to be if all these people are investing in the share market, we know they’re not going to financial advisors, because it’s too expensive. We know they’re not listening to us. So, where are they getting their investing strategies from, do you think?

Tony  28:17
Influences. Yeah, that’s what the article suggested. But you don’t know how many are just buying ETFs as well.

Cameron  28:25
Or Bitcoin.

Tony  28:26
Or Bitcoin, yeah. We don’t know much about where they’re investing. Because it doesn’t talk about share market investors, it talks about investing outside of super and the family home. They could be buying wine or art or cars or watches, or anything collectible as well.

Cameron  28:42
Okay. Racehorses.

Tony  28:44
Yeah. I’m kind of surprised by those numbers, in that I had seen articles about the people who withdrew money during COVID now having not much left and going home with their tails between their legs, and the numbers dropping, so I’m surprised that this year is higher than last year.

Cameron  29:04
Do you think you can do better than 16%, Tony?

Tony  29:08
Well, I have over time, but that is getting to be quite a high threshold, isn’t it? I think our dummy portfolio’s returning about 16% now.

Cameron  29:16
Per annum over the long haul, yeah.

Tony  29:19
But for me, the mindset isn’t how much tax am I paying, add that to the mortgage, add the 6% risk premium everyone talks about, and try and reach that hurdle. It’s can I make any money in the share market? Yes. And can I have the dividends pay the mortgage interest rate? Yes. So, to me, it’s still a no brainer. But I accept the premise that the person was talking about in the article. It’s not how I see it, though.

Cameron  29:45
Okay. Let me ask you a question. So, Navexa. Somebody sent me an email last night about the light portfolios and how one of them is up 20%. One of them is down 20%-well, down about 10%, actually, but it’s 20% of capital is down but then there’s dividends that have made up 10%. I think we’re actually reporting it down a little bit more than that. But he was saying, “if you rule one things at 10%, why is it down more than 10%?” I said, “well, yeah, that’s a good question. And there have been a couple of cases, I think OML and RBL are two that I can think of, where the share price just fell off a cliff, like, in one morning, and you know, it was like 20 or 30% down by the time I heard about it and could get out. But then I saw GRR. I couldn’t figure this out. It said that we bought GRR on the 16th of February 2022t at 81.5 cents. We sold it on the second of September 2022 at 77.5 cents. So, that’s a loss of about four cents a share about 5% of the buy price. We sold because it was an iron ore commodity sell. But Navexa is showing it as a loss of 54.14% per annum. Now, I’m not very good with the numbers, Tony, so I thought I’d ask you to explain that to me.

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Cameron  1:05:05
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