Transcript #532

QAV 532 CLUB

Cameron  00:06

Wel­come back to QAV. This is episode 532. We’re record­ing this 1:41pm, Tues­day 16th of August 2022. Bloody day in the mar­kets today, TK. Well, with some of our stocks any­way. How are you TK?

Tony  00:24

I’m good. It’s been a tough report­ing sea­son though, in some aspects for sure.

Cameron  00:29

Yeah. The mar­ket is actu­al­ly up today but a cou­ple of big stocks have had bad annu­al reports come out which has tanked them mas­sive­ly. We’ll get into that lat­er on. What else is going on in your world? You’re going away on vaca­tion, TK?

Tony  00:45

I am. I’m head­ing off to the hope­ful­ly sun­ny climes of Fiji. Although I think it’s rain­ing over there at the moment. It’s final­ly cleared up in Syd­ney and I’m gonna go and fly to a coun­try where it’s rain­ing.

Cameron  00:57

Spend a week in your hotel room just watch­ing the mon­soons out­side.

Tony  01:01

Yeah, so I won a golf trip in a tour­na­ment about three years ago now and haven’t been able to go because of COVID, so we’re head­ing off tomor­row.

Cameron  01:11

That’s good. I thought you were going because it was your love­ly wife’s birth­day, but you’re going on a golf trip.

Tony  01:16

Well, she was invit­ed, but she’s going to go to Perth next week instead to vis­it some friends over there.

Cameron  01:21

Oh, she’s not com­ing to Fiji. No,

Tony  01:23

No, no.

Cameron  01:24

Oh, I thought you were tak­ing her away for her birth­day.

Tony  01:28

No, I’m going with a bud­dy. We’re play­ing golf.

Cameron  01:30

You said, “its Jen­ny’s birth­day and I’m going to Fiji,” and I thought those two were con­nect­ed. No, it’s her birth­day and you’re get­ting out of town. Wow.

Tony  01:37

Yeah. So, it’s her birth­day tomor­row, my love­ly wife’s birth­day. Hap­py birth­day, Jen­ny. So, we’re going out tonight because I’m going to leave at like sparrow’s fart tomor­row to the air­port.

Cameron  01:46

“Hap­py birth­day! I’m going to Fiji!”

Tony  01:50

And then when I get back, we’ll tag, and she jumps on a plane and flies to Perth to go down to the Mar­garet Riv­er with a friend who’s hav­ing a 60th birth­day down there. So, she’s got lots of girl­friends fly­ing over there for that. And then Rud­dy’s com­ing up to stay with me while Jen­ny’s away.

Cameron  02:06

Of course, he is. If I said to Chris­sy, if it was her birth­day and I said “bye, I’m going to Fiji on a boy’s trip,” I would be divorced by the time I got back.

Tony  02:18

Hence, we’re going out tonight to a real­ly nice restau­rant, and a gallery before­hand to buy her a birth­day present. So, hope­ful­ly it’ll be enough in the good books.

Cameron  02:27

Good luck with that, TK. You for­got your wed­ding anniver­sary this year, too, did­n’t you?

Tony  02:32

Yeah, I was at Cape Schanck.

Cameron  02:37

I dun­no, man, I don’t like the sound of this. I don’t like the sound.

Tony  02:40

I lose track of days and times at Cape Schanck. It’s good, it’s good that way.

Cameron  02:44

Well, let’s get into the busi­ness at hand. Let’s see, what have I got on my notes to talk about? Oh, there’s a nice lit­tle arti­cle. Matt Taib­bi, my favourite rene­gade jour­nal­ist in the US, in his newslet­ter the oth­er day, he had this thing about the US econ­o­my which I thought was inter­est­ing: “Signs of the com­ing eco­nom­ic hor­ror accrue. Despite a spate of uncon­vinc­ing reas­sur­ances to the con­trary, evi­dence of approach­ing dis­as­ter con­tin­ues to accu­mu­late. Amer­i­cans, par­tic­u­lar­ly those under twen­ty-five, are over­whelmed by basic costs and spent spring and sum­mer dig­ging big­ger holes for them­selves via record lev­els of con­sumer bor­row­ing. Fed­er­al Reserve stats this week showed a stag­ger­ing 233 mil­lion cred­it card accounts were opened in the sec­ond quar­ter. That’s two thirds of the pop­u­la­tion. The most since 2008, while at just a stag­ger­ing $46 bil­lion was added to cred­it card bal­ances dur­ing that same peri­od, house­hold debt past 16 tril­lion for the first time, while over­all cred­it card debt has jumped 100 bil­lion this cal­en­dar year.”

Tony  03:58

Well, so much for the Quad­pay and After­pay and Klar­na and all those com­pa­nies wean­ing Mil­len­ni­als off cred­it card debt, it has­n’t worked. You can’t accuse Matt Taib­bi of under­state­ment though, can you? “Signs of the com­ing eco­nom­ic hor­ror!”

Cameron  04:17

That’s what I love about him. He real­ly is a Gonzo jour­nal­ist in the great tra­di­tion of Hunter S… Hunter S. Thomp­son. Yeah, well, I named my kid after him and I can’t even remem­ber his name. That’s sad. What do you think about that? I mean, I know our econ­o­my does­n’t nec­es­sar­i­ly track along­side the US, but the US econ­o­my does obvi­ous­ly have a big impact on us. Those aren’t good signs for an econ­o­my. I know that we’ve come out of a reces­sion — no, sor­ry, we’ve come out of the COVID thing — and the econ­o­my over there has been waver­ing, but that’s a that’s a real­ly bad sign at this junc­ture.

Tony  04:53

I don’t know, is it? What’s the con­text for all that? So, peo­ple have put more onto their cred­it cards, but you men­tion 46 bil­lion, is that 1%/10%/100% Increase? I don’t know. A lot of cred­it card debt over there.

Cameron  05:08

He said it’s stag­ger­ing, so he thinks it’s a lot.

Tony  05:13

Well, yeah, I mean, it’s hard to know with­out know­ing the con­text. And like you said, the cred­it card debt has jumped 100 bil­lion this cal­en­dar year, again, is that a lot? The US is a pret­ty big mar­ket, so, I don’t know.

Cameron  05:26

Well, he did say the house­hold debt has passed 16 tril­lion for the first time. So, 46 bil­lion to 16 tril­lion is not much, right. If house­hold debt is 16 tril­lion, 46 bil­lion has been added to the cred­it card bal­ances in terms of over­all house­hold debt. I guess that’s not a lot.

Tony  05:47

Yeah. So, I don’t know what the con­text is. I mean, there’s so much going on in the US at the moment in the eco­nom­ic space, it’s hard to know what’s going on. Infla­tion is high but it seems to have peaked, and some peo­ple are say­ing it could be com­ing down, which is why the stock mar­ket has ral­lied over there. But house­hold debt is always going to increase. It does­n’t go back­wards. It’s going to be dri­ven by growth in the econ­o­my and house prices and all that kind of stuff.

Cameron  06:14

Growth in the pop­u­la­tion, too.

Tony  06:16

Yeah, that’s right. So, I don’t know what that sig­ni­fies. Just post­ing those num­bers by them­selves, it’s hard to get a con­text. But yeah, if peo­ple are, for exam­ple, I mean, if I can draw a long­bow here and say that what Matt Taib­bi is say­ing is that peo­ple are becom­ing more indebt­ed because the cost of liv­ing is going up in the States — and that’s a prob­lem — how­ev­er if the CPI is now peak­ing and might come down, there’s still going to be a cred­it bal­ance or a debt bal­ance that peo­ple have to pay off, but it may not be an ongo­ing prob­lem. So, it’s pret­ty hard to read in the States at the moment. It all hinges on whether infla­tion keeps going up, which of course hinges on so many things like glob­al polit­i­cal prob­lems in Ukraine and straights of Chi­na, all that kind of stuff.

Cameron  07:02

Well, we’ll have Tobias Carlisle back on the show next week, and we can ask him what he thinks is going on over there. He can put some con­text on.

Tony  07:13

Yeah. I hon­est­ly think every­one’s got an opin­ion, but I don’t think any­one one knows, real­ly, what’s going on over there — or can pre­dict it. I mean, you can tell what’s going on but, you know, like it was, what, six months or twelve months ago when infla­tion start­ed to appear? Every­one was going, all the econ­o­mists were say­ing, “oh, it’s tem­po­rary,” right? And in the last few months it’s been, “oh, no It’s per­ma­nent, it’s gonna get worse.” And now it’s, “oh, no, could be tem­po­rary.” It’s like they’re just blow­ing in the wind.

Cameron  07:39

Well, we can ask the Pres­i­dent of the Unit­ed States what he thinks. I don’t mean Joe Biden; I mean the oth­er pres­i­dent. I don’t know if you know it, but at one point between 2020 and 2021, Scott Mor­ri­son secret­ly made him­self Pres­i­dent of the Unit­ed State, along with every oth­er job. My take on this, by the way, is he knew he was going to lose the next elec­tion and he was just try­ing to fat­ten up his CV. He can now go, “look! I’ve been the health min­is­ter, I was the finance min­is­ter, I was the home affairs min­is­ter. I was you name it; I’ve done it all. I’m well round­ed. I’ve done every­thing. Not just Scot­ty from Mar­ket­ing now.”

Tony  08:17

Did you ever watch the late show? Back in the 90s?

Cameron  08:19

Of course, I loved the Late Show. I’ve been watch­ing YouTube clips of it recent­ly, actu­al­ly.

Tony  08:24

Me too. But the John Fahey sketch, when he was state pre­miere, but he also took over min­is­ter for the Olympics and a few oth­er things. The Late Show sketch was: so, who’s going to run the Olympics? “I’ll do that!” He kept putting his hand up, “I’ll do that!” Who’s run­ning the trains, Mr Fahey? “I’ll do that!” It’s like Scot­ty from Mar­ket­ing. Like, I get that whole thing. I mean, okay, it was a back­up plan for COVID which was unprece­dent­ed — what hap­pens if the Health Min­is­ter falls ill and can’t exe­cute their abil­i­ties? But why not tell peo­ple, why did it have to be secret?

Cameron  09:00

Par­tic­u­lar­ly the min­is­ters?

Tony  09:01

Yeah. And in some cas­es, they were Junior min­is­ters any­way who could step up and take the roll over in the nat­ur­al cause of events, so.

Cameron  09:11

And he said, “oh, I just assumed my depart­ment told them.” Real­ly? This seems like a pret­ty big thing that you would want to be… when you take some­body’s job, I think, you know, maybe a phone call at least. “Hey, Tony, I’m tak­ing over your job.”

Tony  09:32

What was the Gov­er­nor Gen­er­al think­ing? Scot­ty rocks up, I don’t know what time of day it was, on the qui­et. “Here, sign here. I’m tak­ing over the coun­try.” “Oh, righty‑o. Yeah, sure.”

Cameron  09:45

What a cow­boy. Back to busi­ness, gold became a sell. Gold AUD became a sell this week.

Tony  09:51

I think it was a sell a cou­ple of weeks ago and it nosed above its sell price last week, and it’s back below it again.

Cameron  09:57

Oh, okay. But I see that you sold West African Resources out of your port­fo­lio.

Tony  10:04

It took me a lit­tle while because it kept going up and down, but I sold out. And sold out of Perseus, PRU, as well. I did that a cou­ple of weeks ago, actu­al­ly, the first time gold became a sell.

Cameron  10:15

Right. Just a note to every­body out there if you’re sit­ting on gold stocks, might be worth just hav­ing a think about that. If gold has become a sell, prob­a­bly not a good sign.

Tony  10:26

Yeah, it’s strange. The gold price has been up for a while now, but it does seem strange that we’re hav­ing high infla­tion and the gold price is going down. That’s fair­ly unusu­al.

Cameron  10:35

Usu­al­ly, a hedge against things like that, right?

Tony  10:37

Cor­rect.

Cameron  10:38

All right. Well. to report­ing sea­son. I saw in the Fin this morn­ing “mar­ket tur­moil wipes 57% of Chal­lenger (CGF) net prof­its.” Chal­lenger, big hit. I post­ed before the mar­ket opened on the Face­book group “keep an eye on it”, and then I went to Kung Fu and had lunch and came back and had a look at it and it was down 14%. It’s down 14.5% today, so I had to sell that out of my Super. And I think we’ve got it in a cou­ple of our port­fo­lios I’m gonna have to dump out of as well when we get off the call.

Cameron  10:38

Yeah, I’ve done the same, sold out of it, too. Dis­ap­point­ing. That was the great white hope for me. I thought it might attract a bid because it’s got a cou­ple of large share­hold­ers who are patient­ly sit­ting on about, I think, 17% of the com­pa­ny, some­thing like that. Maybe it will now after the share price has tanked a bit.

Cameron  11:33

I think I still got out of it at a prof­it. It had been doing quite well, but that’s a big chunk. So, you know, how come we did­n’t get any warn­ing of this dur­ing con­fes­sion sea­son?

Tony  11:45

We cer­tain­ly should have, so watch this space. There could be a class action if there was no con­tin­u­ous dis­clo­sure. We might make our mon­ey back in a cou­ple of years when the lawyers grind their way through.

Cameron  11:55

Oh, nice.

Tony  11:56

And you give half to them.

Cameron  11:58

Yeah. I want­ed to ask you about this thing in the Fin, though. It said net prof­it fell 57%, $253.7 mil­lion, blahdy blahdy blah. Lat­er on, though, it says “Chal­lenger said it’s nor­malised net prof­it was $472 mil­lion, up 19% from a year ago, and at the upper end of its $430–480 mil­lion guid­ance.” And “the com­pa­ny lift­ed its full year div­i­dend 15% to 23 cents share.” I thought when I read this this morn­ing, I thought those two things might be a buffer to the price get­ting whacked. What’s a nor­malised net prof­it mean?

Tony  12:40

So, I haven’t had a chance to pull it apart yet, but there’s some­thing they’ve had to take a write down on.

Cameron  12:45

Is this Char­lie Munger bull­shit earn­ings here? Bull­shit eco­nom­ics?

Tony  12:48

Well, nor­malised earn­ings are bull­shit earn­ings. So, they’re basi­cal­ly say­ing, “if I take out all the things that lost mon­ey, this is what I would have made.”

Cameron  12:57

“We did real­ly well. Don’t look over there, look into my eyes.”

Tony  13:05

Yeah, no, that’s exact­ly what it is.

Cameron  13:06

You know, Mar­ket­ing the Mes­si­ah made a lot of mon­ey, Tony. If you don’t look at the fact that it did­n’t make any mon­ey, it actu­al­ly made a lot of mon­ey. If you ignore the fact that it did­n’t make any mon­ey.

Tony  13:15

Yeah, if you ignore the costs.

Cameron  13:17

And the fact that it did­n’t make any mon­ey. If you ignore those things, it did real­ly well.

Tony  13:21

I’m just try­ing to work out what it was, but what I think’s hap­pen­ing is a write down was tak­en on an asset which does­n’t affect the cash bot­tom line for prof­it, which is the nor­malised prof­it; some­times it’s called prof­it from con­tin­u­ing busi­ness or some­thing like that. So, it’s a stat­u­ary prof­it which means they’ve had a write down, and I haven’t been able to work out where it is yet. I just skimmed through the arti­cle before the show. They bought a bank two years ago which has under­per­formed, so I think they may have been writ­ing down the good­will on that, but I’m not sure exact­ly what the write down is for.

Cameron  13:55

Well, the mar­ket did­n’t give two shits appar­ent­ly, they just said “nup”, boom, 15% gone.

Tony  14:01

I know. It seems a bit of an over­re­ac­tion, but any­way.

Cameron  14:05

Yeah, it does. But it breached our three-point trend­line, so we have dumped it.

Tony  14:10

And we don’t, we don’t have nor­malised or statu­to­ry trend lines. It’s just “rules are rules.”

Cameron  14:17

Rules is rules.

Tony  14:20

And if a few accoun­tants want to get togeth­er and debate it, go ahead, but our rules are our rules.

Cameron  14:26

So, let me just have a look at the dum­my port­fo­lio while I’m here. CGF is in the dum­my port­fo­lio, I’m gonna have to get rid of that when we get off the call. Let me see. So, since incep­tion, 18.01% per annum CAGR since Sep­tem­ber 2019 ver­sus the ASX 200 up 6.81% per annum over the same peri­od, so we’re still doing three times bet­ter than the 200 over that peri­od of time. How­ev­er, if I look at this finan­cial year, we’re still trail­ing by a van­ish­ing point. 200 is 12.22% this finan­cial year, which is insane. It’s up 12% since July. What? In five weeks, what is it, six weeks? We’re up 5.35%, which is more nor­mal for that peri­od of times. I think that’s okay, we’re doing okay, but not com­pared to the All Ords in the last six weeks. And CGF’s not help­ing. Bloody hell, Chal­lenger, what have you done to us? Some­body asked me yes­ter­day if BPT is the new Apol­lo Tourism, I think Chal­lenger might be the new Apol­lo Tourism. No, it’s done far bet­ter.

Tony  15:44

Nei­ther is BPT. We have bought and sold it twice now, I think, so it’s get­ting close. Apol­lo, I think we bought three or four times, did­n’t we, and had to sell it? And lost each time.

Cameron  15:53

Well, look with this run on Chal­lenger, we bought it in Feb­ru­ary for $7.08. It’s now $6.08, so that’s not good.

Tony  16:04

We would have got­ten a div­i­dend along the way, though. But yeah, still not good.

Cameron  16:08

Yeah, we did get $42 in div­i­dends. Still, any­way, that’s the port­fo­lio report. Mort­gage rates have moved, we need to change our mort­gage rates again, TK?

Tony  16:20

Yeah, so I did a quick sur­vey. I did one last week after the RBA raised rates and the banks had­n’t changed much, so I did­n’t both­er updat­ing the spread­sheet. And they haven’t changed much this week yet either, but we were using 5.14 as our per­cent, as our aver­age of the big banks mort­gage rates, stan­dard vari­able rates, and it’s risen to 5.25 this week. So, a cou­ple of the major banks haven’t passed on all of the RBA increase, or per­haps they already passed it on and then did­n’t do it again. But any­way, it’s gone up a lit­tle bit. So, 5.25 is the new rate to use, and if peo­ple are using my ver­sion of the spread­sheet, it’s in cell AW32 in the Top Scores page as well as the Down­load page.

Cameron  17:07

And in the AF you just go into the tab that has all the vari­ables in it, I think, and you change it in there.

Tony  17:13

Yeah.

Cameron  17:14

Okay, what else you got to talk about today?

Tony  17:19

Well, sor­ry, before we move on from per­for­mance, I just want­ed to point out that the top per­form­ers in Navexa in our dum­my port­fo­lio were NHC up 8.6% and FEX up 8.6%.

Cameron  17:31

Good ol’ FEX.

Tony  17:32

Yeah, so it’s inter­est­ing iron ore is going up, and iron ore stock is going up, because iron ore is going down still as a com­mod­i­ty.

Cameron  17:39

It’s like gold, right?

Tony  17:40

Yeah, and I don’t know what hap­pened. I don’t know why Fenix is doing that, FEX, if but it’s a bit like West African Resources; the gold price was a sell, but they came out with a resource upgrade, an asset upgrade, so that’s why the price rose with them. So, it can still hap­pen on a com­pa­ny-by-com­pa­ny basis that goes up when the com­mod­i­ty’s com­ing down, but over­all, we sell any­way. Well, that’s the big news this week for me. It’s just been com­pa­ny report­ing sea­son. So, peo­ple should be doing down­loads. I’ve been doing them dai­ly just to keep a tab on what’s going on. I’m still try­ing to get all my cash back into the mar­ket, so I’m look­ing for things to buy. We have good days and there are lots of things to buy, and then we have days like today where I scratch my head and go “what can I buy?” But peo­ple should be aware that there are new com­pa­nies com­ing onto the buy list. And we put out the buy list week­ly, but they could prob­a­bly do a mid­week down­load and have a look as well, because I have found a cou­ple; cer­tain­ly, in the large cap space, have come on and I’ve been buy­ing, and then there’s a few com­ing on in the small cap space. But there’s a lot of new fig­ures in Stock Doc­tor and in the down­load spread­sheet for com­pa­nies that we’ve been talk­ing about, and we’ve owned in the past, or in the dum­my port­fo­lio. Com­pa­nies like Gen­worth, Comm Bank, Sun­corp, AMP, JB Hi-Fi. I’ve spo­ken about Beach Ener­gy and Chal­lenger which are both sells now based on the lat­est results. We did­n’t touch on Beach, but I’m a share­hold­er — until this morn­ing, when I sold — but it’s a dis­ap­point­ment because they had that big write down about twelve to eigh­teen months ago which real­ly shocked the mar­ket when I last owned it, and got stopped out then, and new man­age­ment kept say­ing “no, no, we’ll be con­ser­v­a­tive, and it’ll all be all right.” And then they’ve come out again with anoth­er dis­ap­point­ing result, so that’s a sec­ond strike for Beach. It’s not look­ing good.

Cameron  19:34

And again, no con­fes­sion sea­son warn­ing, it’s just come.

Tony  19:37

Cor­rect, it just comes, yeah. It’s sur­pris­ing. That sur­prise fac­tor is why the share price is drop­ping. But yeah, par­tic­u­lar­ly irk­ing when it comes to Beach because they knew that they should have known that any sort of bad news was­n’t going to be received well, and they should have been doing some­thing to try and guide peo­ple or soft­en up the mar­ket in advance of releas­ing those results. I can’t imag­ine that the Stokes are gonna sit still for it. They own a chunk of Beach Ener­gy, and their play­book isn’t to sit still when a com­pa­ny keeps under­per­form­ing like this, so I’m not sure what they’ll do, but I’m sure they’ll be fair­ly active in the com­pa­ny try­ing to fix it. So, that’s com­pa­ny report­ing sea­son, keep a look­out, peo­ple, it’s chang­ing every day.

Cameron  20:19

Sor­ry, before you move on. Can I ask you, you men­tioned GMA, CBA, etc. I ran finan­cials update report on Stock Doc­tor this morn­ing and I did­n’t see those come up. I just looked at it from yes­ter­day to today because I fig­ured any­thing that came out last week would have been includ­ed in the buy list that we did over the week­end, but they did­n’t show up when I ran it this morn­ing and I was­n’t sure if that’s because they came out last week. They came out last week.

Tony  20:50

So, GMA, AMP, I’m not sure about Sun­corp and CBA, but they came out last week. So, your finan­cial update sec­tion of Stock Doc­tor you can select the date range, but if you go down far enough, you’ll prob­a­bly find them in your list.

Cameron  21:03

Well, I fig­ured I did­n’t need to do a buy list to look for those today because they would be in the buy list that came out yes­ter­day morn­ing, because we got the finan­cials last week. So, I’m just look­ing for stuff that’s come out since the buy list went out on Mon­day. So, yes­ter­day and today.

Tony  21:18

Yeah. Okay, so you would­n’t see GMA and Sun­corp in that. CBA per­haps, but it’s being updat­ed every day, so just be aware of that. The oth­er thing to be aware of if you’re buy­ing and sell­ing, which I’m doing at the moment based on the results, is to watch out for ex div­i­dend dates. So, be aware that if you buy, for exam­ple, some­thing today, it may go ex-div­i­dend in a cou­ple of days’ time and the share price might drop. Don’t be alarmed, just add the div­i­dend back here before you make the deci­sion on whether you should sell or not. And like­wise, you may want to wait until that drop occurs because you’re not inter­est­ed in the div­i­dend, you might want to take the gam­ble and delay for a few days and then buy ex div­i­dend which will be cheap­er.

Cameron  21:58

And just a reminder on the rules around that, because I had to remind myself on this last week; if we own a stock and it goes below its rule one or three-point trend­lines sell trig­ger and it is about to go ex-div­i­dend but has­n’t yet, even if it’s gonna go ex div tomor­row — and if we own it, we will get the div­i­dend — you’ve told me in the past we sell any­way, we don’t wait for it to go ex div because when it goes ex div the price will nor­mal­ly go down the val­ue of the div­i­dend and it’ll be even fur­ther below. And if it’s already below the sell line, when it goes ex div its going to be worse. So, we sell. We don’t hold on to get the div­i­dend.

Tony  22:43

Cor­rect. So, Chal­lenger is a good exam­ple of that. It’ll go ex-div­i­dend in a week or so, I would think, and the div­i­dend is a rea­son­able yield so it’s worth some­thing. But that’s already fac­tored into the share price, so I would expect it to drop again once the com­pa­ny goes ex div­i­dend. So, some­thing else to watch is the price of nick­el the com­mod­i­ty. I had a look at that on the week­end, it’s get­ting close to a buy. It’s been in a steep down­trend the last month or so, it’s just start­ed to have a less steep down­trend. It’s still a Josephine, but it’s get­ting close to turn­ing up and being a buy again.

Cameron  23:17

And who are the nick­el com­pa­nies in Aus­tralia that usu­al­ly would ben­e­fit from that?

Tony  23:24

Yeah, so the one that that I’ve owned in the past is Nick­el Mines, NIC.

Cameron  23:29

Nick Scali?

Tony  23:31

 No, NIC, Nick­el Mines.

Cameron  23:33

It’s a joke. Nick Scali is not a nick­el com­pa­ny?

Tony  23:37

No, NCK, no. Gotcha.

Cameron  23:38

Come on Tony. Keep up, try to keep up.

Tony  23:42

I’m on hol­i­days.

Cameron  23:44

Not yet! I’m hav­ing a look at the list of all the nick­el com­pa­nies, just try­ing to see what looks famil­iar. Wow, there’s a lot of them.

Tony  23:56

So, some of those will just be part nick­el, though, won’t they? Which ones are you look­ing at?

Cameron  24:00

Well, RIO. S32. I don’t know how big a deal nick­el is for RIO, is it a big deal?

Tony  24:07

Not big, no.

Cameron  24:08

South 32, prob­a­bly not a big part of them either. Sand­fire Resources.

Tony  24:14

Sand­fire is cop­per, so nick­el won’t be a big part of them either. A lot of min­ers will have some nick­el but com­pa­nies like Nick­el Indus­tries will have a lot.

Cameron  24:22

Nick­el indus­tries, NIC. Yeah, okay. All right. Nick­el. That’s good to know. Hey, I don’t think it’s in our show notes, but I did see some­thing I bought yes­ter­day, there was a min­er­al sands play­er: BSE, Base Resources. I want­ed to ask you about this because I had a look at what these min­er­al sands are that they deal in, and a lot of ele­ments that I’ve nev­er heard of before, went over my head. Pure min­er­al sands. I went look­ing for a com­mod­i­ty price on these things.

Tony  25:01

Yesh, it’s hard to find.

Cameron  25:02

I could­n’t find any­thing.

Tony  25:04

I’ve strug­gled before, too. Tita­ni­um oxide is the one I’d nor­mal­ly use but it’s even dif­fi­cult to get a graph for that.

Cameron  25:10

They’ve got this mine, Kwale mine and the Toliara project in Mada­gas­car. Ilmenite. I don’t know what the hell ilmenite is, what do you do with ilmenite?

Tony  25:21

I don’t know.

Cameron  25:22

It’s a tita­ni­um iron oxide min­er­al, there you go.

Tony  25:26

Yeah, that’s the big one.

Cameron  25:28

So yeah, I went look­ing for a while to try and find that and the oth­er things that they dig out. Could­n’t find any­thing to go by. Oh, there we go: rutile, ilmenite and zir­con. I obvi­ous­ly skipped those class­es in chem­istry. Rutile is an acces­so­ry min­er­al in igneous rocks but is more com­mon in schists and gneiss­es. Geol­o­gist mem­bers like Mark Dug­more are going to be lis­ten­ing and just shak­ing their head going, “oh, you’re such an idiot.”

Tony  26:02

the Ger­man min­er­al “shishkin­isht”.

Cameron  26:06

I know a bit schisms in the Catholic Church but I don’t know about schists in rock. And what was the oth­er one? Oh, zir­con, well I know what zir­con is.

Tony  26:15

Just be care­ful with zir­con, because it’s zir­con rutile. So, if you look for a graph on zir­con it might give you the fake dia­monds, the man-made dia­monds.

Cameron  26:24

Oh, it’s dif­fer­ent?

Tony  26:25

Dif­fer­ent zir­con, yeah.

Cameron  26:27

Zir­co­ni­um sil­i­cate. Maybe Mark needs to come on and tell us what these things are.

Tony  26:33

Well, I know tita­ni­um oxide is a feed­er into paint, like house paint. So, I think that’s prob­a­bly its major use, although I know some of those min­er­als you’ve men­tioned can get used in sil­i­con chip man­u­fac­tur­ing, but the main thing is paint.

Cameron  26:47

So, no good on that.

Tony  26:49

Oh, sor­ry, and glass.

Cameron  26:52

So, if any­one knows where we can get com­mod­i­ty prices for those things, let us know. I’m sure Mark knows. We’ve got a lot of min­ing guys that’ll prob­a­bly know.

Tony  27:01

Yeah, well, that’s good if they can tell us. I think we’ve looked into once before, did­n’t we?

Cameron  27:05

I think we did, yeah, I could­n’t remem­ber what you said.

Tony  27:07

I think rutile was the one to focus on from mem­o­ry. I haven’t looked at it for a while.

Cameron  27:13

I know about the Rus­sel­l’s. It’s not con­nect­ed to the Russell’s?

Tony  27:17

Let me just call up Index Mun­di quick­ly and see if I can find some­thing there for you.

Cameron  27:22

All you need is cash.

Tony  27:25

I remem­ber that, that was fun­ny. Rut­land Week­end TV.

Cameron  27:30

Dirk McQuick­ly.

Tony  27:37

We’re talk­ing about Eric Idle for peo­ple who are not famil­iar with them, but it was a great lit­tle… star­ring George Har­ri­son, too.

Cameron  27:45

As the inter­view­er.

Tony  27:46

Yeah. I can’t see a graph on Index Mun­di. I remem­ber it last time being hard to find.

Cameron  27:52

Okay. Sor­ry for that lit­tle side-track, there.

Tony  27:56

Yeah. Well, what else have I got to talk about? I was going to do a pulled pork on Sun­land Group, which was a request from a lis­ten­er a cou­ple of weeks ago, and I’ll do that now. I guess the first thing to talk about with Sun­land Group is it’s in wind­down phase, which I think was the rea­son why the lis­ten­er asked for it to be put under the micro­scope. So, here goes. So, Sun­land Group is a Queens­land prop­er­ty devel­op­er and it’s been around since the 90s, I think as a pri­vate com­pa­ny before that. They build both high ris­es and res­i­den­tial hous­ing. They built a lot on the Gold Coast and into north­ern New South Wales, and I guess going north towards Bris­bane. They were respon­si­ble for Q1, which was the tallest res­i­den­tial build­ing in Aus­tralia — per­haps the world — for a while. They built the Palaz­zo Ver­sace in the Gold Coast, so they’ve had a quite a good career of devel­op­ing icon­ic build­ings as well as res­i­den­tial hous­ing devel­op­ment. The whole time it’s been helmed by a guy called Sol Abe­di­an, and Sol is short for Soheil. I think, from mem­o­ry, he’s Iran­ian. Any­ways, he’s from some­where in the mid­dle east. He was a trained archi­tect over­seas but then could­n’t get his cre­den­tials recog­nised in Aus­tralia when he came out in the 80s, start­ed build­ing hous­es to pay the rent and went from there. One of the, sort of, immi­grant suc­cess sto­ries. The com­pa­ny has been con­trolled by him since it list­ed and he’s now the exec­u­tive chair­man, and his son is the MD, and they still retain quite a large share­hold­ing in the com­pa­ny. So, it’s a clas­sic own­er-founder sto­ry. It’s had its ups and downs — not because of any­thing to do with man­age­ment, but just the cycle of the prop­er­ty indus­try. I think it dropped as low as some­thing like 30 cents a share dur­ing the GFC but it’s now back up to around $2.55ish. So, you could have picked it up for peanuts ten-fif­teen years ago. The big news for them now is that Sol has come out and said he’s going to wind down the com­pa­ny. He said this about twelve to eigh­teen months ago, and he said that it would take about three years. So, he’s get­ting to retire­ment age and his plan is to sell off all their assets, fin­ish off all their cur­rent devel­op­ments, which is get­ting close to hap­pen­ing. So, they’ve realised a lot of sales in the last twelve months. They’ve still got a cou­ple of projects which are near com­ple­tion and they’re sell­ing well, and they’ll set­tle towards the end of this year. And after that, they plan to pay off their debt with the pro­ceeds from the sales and then return what­ev­er’s left to the share­hold­ers; either by spe­cial div­i­dend, which they’ve done twice now in the last nine months or so, or by some kind of cap­i­tal return. So, I guess in a nut­shell, if you’re look­ing to buy this com­pa­ny know that it’s not going to be a long-term hold, it’s going to basi­cal­ly cease to exist in the next one-two years, if not even soon­er. The chances of get­ting some kind of share price gain out of it are slim; the way that would hap­pen that I could see is that if some­thing comes along, which isn’t part of the plan. I can’t imag­ine some­one would try and take over this com­pa­ny because it’s almost sold off all its assets now. But who knows, I mean, it’s hard to pre­dict. But if the son said, “oh, look, I’m hap­py to keep run­ning the com­pa­ny and don’t want it to de-list and I’ll keep it going,” maybe that might put a floor under the price. But I can’t see it hap­pen­ing. There’s noth­ing to sug­gest that this com­pa­ny won’t go from $2.50 a share back to zero, and you’d think, well, you’d hope if it’s trad­ing at the right price you’d get your $2.50 back in terms of div­i­dends or cap­i­tal repay­ments. And that’s a big if, because the thing to watch in this kind of case is the NTA or net equi­ty per share, which are the same in this case: they’re both at $2.24, which is slight­ly below the share price. When I did this analy­sis, it was $2.57. But bear in mind, the NTA that we have is the one from the last results, we still don’t have new num­bers to go on for this com­pa­ny. So, you’d expect the NTA to drop because they’ve been sell­ing off their assets. So, unless you’re an expe­ri­enced prop­er­ty per­son and can look at what they’ve done, val­ue the cur­rent pipeline, what you think they’ll get for it — bear in mind the mar­ket’s com­ing off the boil a bit — it’s gonna be hard to val­ue this because we’re get­ting fig­ure six months in the past for what the NTA is. If, for exam­ple, it was the reverse and the share price was below the NTA you might be able to buy it for 80 cents on the dol­lar, for exam­ple. It might be worth­while doing. But that does­n’t appear the case at the moment. I would think the NTA will go down because they’ve sold assets when we get new results. The oth­er thing to be mind­ful of, too, is there’s one ana­lyst in Stock Doc­tor which they’re using as the con­sen­sus fore­cast, and that per­son has a tar­get of $1.24 and the share price is cur­rent­ly $2.57. So, I’m guess­ing that per­son has done a deep dive into the prop­er­ty port­fo­lio for this com­pa­ny and has worked out that at the moment, what’s left in terms of assets less lia­bil­i­ties is prob­a­bly going to be a lot less than what the share price is cur­rent­ly. So, there is a bit of a quandary with this one. If I go through the num­bers quick­ly. It’s a small­ish com­pa­ny at the moment because it’s been shed­ding assets, it’s now down to $63,000 ADT. As I said, it’s trad­ing way above its con­sen­sus tar­get. The yield is good at 6.3%, but it’s been boost­ed by the spe­cial div­i­dends it’s been pay­ing out over the last two halves. So, the div­i­dends are going to be lumpy and will depend on what assets sales have been realised and how much debt was against those assets, and they’ll be hard to fore­cast going for­ward. Finan­cial Health is still strong and steady and it’s trad­ing at a price to oper­at­ing cash flow of 2.6 times. So, that’s good from the QAV point of view, but, you know, how long is the oper­at­ing cash flow going to con­tin­ue? Because they’re real­ly not a long-term if not even a medi­um-term oper­at­ing com­pa­ny. The cur­rent share price is above both IV  1 and IV 2. Direc­tors hold 43%, which is good. In terms of man­u­al data, it’s the low­est of the last six years. It isn’t a new three-point upturn. It actu­al­ly had a big upturn back when they announced the wind­ing down of the com­pa­ny, so I guess peo­ple did a quick analy­sis of what the assets were worth, the net assets were worth, and then rerat­ed the share price then. So, that’s an inter­est­ing thing. But the share price has been bounc­ing around since then. Does­n’t have con­sis­tent­ly increas­ing equi­ty, which you’d expect giv­en it’s in runoff mode. So, over­all, the qual­i­ty score is 73%, eleven on fif­teen. So, it gets a score of eleven out of fif­teen pos­si­ble items, and a QAV score of 0.28. I can recall back in my invest­ing dim, dark past, I bought a min­ing com­pa­ny — and I can’t recall which one it is, because it was going back twen­ty years or so — and it was in a sim­i­lar sit­u­a­tion. It had announced for a long time and were quite trans­par­ent in say­ing the mine was going to shut in two years’ time. In the last two years of its life, they said, “look, we’re gonna give 25% of the assets back to the share­hold­ers over each half in the next two years by way of a div­i­dend.” And at the time, which is why I bought the shares, the yield was 25%. The mar­ket actu­al­ly rerat­ed that yield by buy­ing up the shares and it dropped back to sin­gle fig­ures, which is more in line with the rest of the mar­ket. And of course, you know, we got our mon­ey back, but I sold out when the share price went up so much because I knew it was­n’t going to be a long-term hold. So, you can make mon­ey in these sit­u­a­tions. I’m guess­ing it’s a bit late in the game to make mon­ey now, unless as I said before, some­thing out of left field hap­pens. So, you could buy this on the num­bers, on the QAV num­bers, it’s a 0.28 score, but I’m not sure I would be. The only upside risk I can see is if some­thing hap­pens that’s unusu­al, that has­n’t been planned for.

Cameron  35:57

Alright, well, thanks for doing that. Who­ev­er asked for SDG, hope that helps.

Tony  36:01

Yeah, and thanks for the ques­tion. Inter­est­ing sit­u­a­tion.

Cameron  36:04

You’re ready to do Q&A?

Tony  36:06

I am, yep.

Cameron  36:08

Andy is first up this week. “Hi Cam. Propos­ing a pos­si­ble ques­tion, is the occur­rence of a delist­ing event,” anoth­er delist­ing event, in this case OGC, Oceana Gold. “On 29/7 they made the announce­ment and about a week lat­er dur­ing a slight upturn, not enough in hind­sight, I bought some. Just sold today after real­is­ing. So, the ques­tion is: would TK rank a delist­ing as a QAV bad news sell inclu­sion? Sim­i­lar to a CEO depart­ing where we don’t know the actu­al impact on the com­pa­ny’s for­ward health, but we can make an assess­ment of some unac­cept­able risk of decline. The same case could be put for­ward for delist­ing. Some forum dis­cus­sion is sug­gest­ing that OGC share­hold­ers will have auto­mat­ic con­ver­sion of their shares on the Toron­to exchange, the TSX, where pre­sum­ably they could be sold in exchange back to AUD, and also oth­er sug­ges­tions that the price on the TSX could trend pos­i­tive after OGC absorbed the cost ben­e­fits of clos­ing the ASX admin side of things. In sum­ma­ry, I pro­pose it is pos­si­bly too much risk for a QAVer to bear. #bad­news­sell, well it is for me any­way. I should add, TK has in the past under­lined the sud­den­ness ele­ment of a CEOs depar­ture notice com­pared to a planned han­dover, and in this case, a some­what sud­den delist­ing notice some­what buried in five oth­er dai­ly ASX announce­ments. By the way, Hot­cop­per forums are dis­cussing the solu­tion of arbi­trage in between ASX and TSX which TK would have expe­ri­enced in I’m sure but is pos­si­bly out­side our gam­bit. Thanks again.” And he goes, “com­par­ing this to the much-antic­i­pat­ed BHP Lon­don delist­ing in Jan 2022.” What do you think about all that, TK?

Tony  37:57

Yeah, again, anoth­er, sort of, one off inter­est­ing case. I like the way Andy posed the ques­tion, “propos­ing a pos­si­ble ques­tion for next week’s dis­cus­sion.” It’s like a Mon­ty Python sketch.

Cameron  38:11

It is.

Tony  38:11

Right, new motion. Any­way, look, I would­n’t say it’s an auto­mat­ic sell but hav­ing gone through all the nuts and bolts of this one, I prob­a­bly would sell it. Unless you’re pre­pared, Andy, to, you know, have a trans­fer of your shares from the ASX to the TSX, in which case, which is fine, it’s the same val­ue — it’s a one-to-one trans­fer — then you can con­tin­ue to hold them. But if you’re doing that you’ve got all the issues of cur­ren­cy move­ments, you’ve got all the issues of dif­fer­ent tax­a­tion regimes, and I guess prob­a­bly the biggest issue is that we don’t have num­bers com­ing out of Toron­to — we don’t have Stock Doc­tor for TSX. So, you’d have to go and find some­one else to pro­vide data for you to do num­ber crunch­ing on this com­pa­ny when it con­tin­ues to oper­ate on the TSX. So, some back­ground: Oceana Gold owns mines in New Zealand, in the US and in the Philip­pines. I don’t think it has a, it may have a mine in Aus­tralia, I’m not sure. So, they have a main list­ing on the TSX and then they have a sec­ondary list­ing over here. I kind of take a bit of issue with the sud­den­ness of this because it was announced with their results, and the fact that there was five oth­er dai­ly ASX announce­ments on the day is what typ­i­cal­ly hap­pens when you have unusu­al things announced with results, so it does­n’t get lost with­in the results announce­ment. They do usu­al­ly split it out as a sep­a­rate high­light. So, if you’re scrolling through the ASX or through Stock Doc­tor for the announce­ments sec­tion, you’ll see “results announce­ments man­age­ment com­men­tary offi­cial fil­ing”, what­ev­er it’s called, Appen­dix 4D or 4E, and then, “delist­ing from the ASX.” It may even be an ASX require­ment that it gets sep­a­rat­ed out like that. So, I’m not sure it’s been hid­den. It may not have been flagged that well, but it’s not nec­es­sar­i­ly hid­den. The rea­son they’re doing it is that they have… its only 7.5% of the mar­ket cap for this com­pa­ny that’s list­ed in Aus­tralia, and so it’s not eco­nom­i­cal for them to keep all the costs of list­ing going in Aus­tralia for that small rump of share­hold­ers. And it’s also stop­ping Oceana Gold from par­tic­i­pat­ing in all the index­es it should par­tic­i­pate in in Aus­tralia. So, it’s a large com­pa­ny over­all, but in Aus­tralian terms, it’s not. So, it’s not being picked up by the index fund man­agers here. And poten­tial­ly that does cre­ate an arbi­trage, if it’s under­val­ued here and over­val­ued in the TSX because it’s part of index­es over there, then, you know, peo­ple will arbi­trage it — which is not a bad thing, but it’s not a healthy sort of invest­ment in the com­pa­ny that the man­age­ment would be after, I would­n’t think. I did do the sums: the Cana­di­an dol­lar is cur­rent­ly… or, $1.10 Aussie buys 1 Cana­di­an dol­lar. So, we’re under­val­ued com­pared to them. The share price of this com­pa­ny, Oceana Gold, in Aus­tralia is $2.37, and if you did the con­ver­sion, it’s $2.16 which is the price in Cana­da. So, I think the mar­kets already worked out the arbi­trage sit­u­a­tion for this one, because it con­verts on the cross cur­ren­cies. What can you do? Well, in this case I would sell, Andy, for the rea­sons out­lined before. If I was an Aus­tralian share­hold­er, I would­n’t nec­es­sar­i­ly want to con­vert my shares to Toron­to. You are get­ting a fair price for them now in terms of it being the same as the TSX price. The com­pa­ny is pro­vid­ing some options; they will give you the con­ver­sion at one to one and they’ll do it for you, which is elim­i­nat­ing the cost of bro­ker­age. If you choose not to do that and you haven’t sold by the time it delists, which I think is at the end of this month, then they will vol­un­tar­i­ly sell your shares and send you a check in Aus­tralian dol­lars for it. So, to me it looks like it’s being pret­ty well han­dled by the com­pa­ny. I under­stand why they’re doing this. But yeah, I think if I had­n’t been aware of this before I bought the shares then I would be sell­ing them now.

Cameron  39:29

And of course, I know Andy’s prob­a­bly talk­ing about this more as a gen­er­al exam­ple, but in this par­tic­u­lar case gold is now sell any­way, so we would be sell­ing it any­way.

Tony  42:25

Yeah, true.

Cameron  42:26

But yeah, that’s an inter­est­ing one. Good one, Andy, thanks for throw­ing that into the mix. Dave: “re: SKT,” Sky Net­work, which we talked about on the show last week. He emailed me the next day, I think, “they’re not pro­ceed­ing with the takeover for Medi­a­Works. Man­age­ment pulled their heads in alleged­ly after some feed­back from share­hold­ers about what a dud idea it was, but they are announc­ing their long-await­ed cap­i­tal return pro­gramme with their annu­al results lat­er this month. Might be a time­ly buy if they return more than is baked into the share price. Do your own research, I hold,” Dave says. Also, “could I be so bold as to sug­gest a tweak to the sign off? QAV won’t change your past, but it will com­pound your future.” I see what you did there, Dave. Very clever. It will com­pound your future. Yes. So, that’s the SKT sto­ry. Not sure there’s much more to be said about that.

Tony  43:21

No, it’s on the buy list, small stock of $46,000 ADT. And again, a dual lis­ter. It’s list­ed on the NSX and over here as well.

Cameron  43:30

NSX? What’s the NSX?

Tony  43:32

New Zealand Stock Exchange.

Cameron  43:34

Ah, okay. It’s not the NZSX?

Tony  43:37

Could be. New Zealand Stock Exchange. And it’s, yeah, I know it’s been a favourite of Dav­e’s for a while now.

Cameron  43:45

All right, I got a last ques­tion, a late one that came in on Face­book from Ally this morn­ing. Ally asks: “let’s talk about div­i­dend yields and why I would­n’t choose from the top of the list down while favour­ing juicy yields, such as ASG or SSG, for instance. If I can hold on to them long enough to pay a div­i­dend then my per­cent­age gain on this share ris­es, so maybe mit­i­gates some rule num­ber one action. Just a thought bub­ble.”

Tony  44:12

Sor­ry, is Ally sug­gest­ing that she wants to buy high yield­ing div­i­dend shares in pref­er­ence to top of the list?

Cameron  44:20

I think that’s what the ques­tion is, yeah.

Tony  44:23

Yeah, sure, go for it. I mean, I think peo­ple can put their own over­lays on all sorts of things on the list: ESG, div­i­dend yield, mar­ket cap, all those kinds of things, for sure. I’ll prob­a­bly still buy them in rank order, though, if she has a thresh­old that she wants to buy, like maybe she wants to 4% or 5% yield as a min­i­mum. Yeah, I would still buy a stock with a high­er QAV score over a stock with a low­er QAV score in that rank­ing. No, look, it makes sense, and there’s been plen­ty of analy­sis around to say that if you hold on to a stock long enough — so maybe ten years or even longer — the div­i­dend com­po­nent of your returns starts to swamp the cap­i­tal com­po­nent of the returns. Because, you know, if you pay $1,000 for a stock now and it’s yield­ing 5%, you’re get­ting that mon­ey now, but if it grows based on your ini­tial price that yield becomes quite high.

Cameron  45:17

Ally also sug­gest­ed that for the sign off we could use some chess relat­ed quotes, and l told her on Face­book my favourite chess quote, and I think it does apply a lit­tle bit to what we do here. It’s by the great Cuban Grand­mas­ter, ear­ly 20th cen­tu­ry, José Raúl Capa­blan­ca.

Tony  45:35

Grand­mas­ter Flash? I thought you were talk­ing about the CHESS sys­tem they’re replac­ing with Blockchain on the ASX.

Cameron  45:44

Well if you’re going to pull out Grand­mas­ter Flash on me, I’m gonna have to break into… “A child is born, with no state of mind, blind to the ways of mankind. God is smilin’ on you, but he’s frown­in’ too, because only God knows what you’ll go through. You’ll grow in the ghet­to, livin’ sec­ond rate, and your eyes will sing a song of deep hate. The place that you play and where you stay looks like one great big alley way. Huh?” Any­way, my quote from Casablan­ca is…

Tony  46:07

“Don’t push me coz I’m close to the edge…”

Cameron  46:16

That’s it, yeah. Before you said some­thing about the tide is high and I was gonna break into Blondie, but then I remem­bered what I did to Olivia, and I did­n’t want to see that Blondie died this week. I don’t wan­na cause any more time­ly deaths of 70s female artists. Capa­blan­ca said, “you may learn much more from a game you lose than from a game you win. You will have to lose hun­dreds of games before becom­ing a good play­er.” And I thought, well, hope­ful­ly I don’t need to lose lots of mon­ey in invest­ing to be good at it, because you’ve done that for us.

Tony  46:54

Yeah, that’s right.

Cameron  46:55

You lost all the mon­ey and then you’ve fig­ured it out, and we can ben­e­fit from your expe­ri­ence rather than have to learn our own painful lessons.

Tony  47:04

True. What was Ally’s sug­ges­tion for a sign off?

Cameron  47:08

Oh, she just had a bunch of ran­dom chess quotes that she dug up, noth­ing that was par­tic­u­lar­ly mem­o­rable. Sor­ry Ally! I did­n’t write them down is the hon­est answer. Well, that’s all the Q&A for this week. Not much again. Obvi­ous­ly, peo­ple have just climbed into their holes and pulled the rock shut behind them while the mar­ket’s doing what it’s doing and we’ve answered every­thing there is to be answered. After hours…

Cameron  54:12

The QAV Val­ue Invest­ing Pod­cast is a pro­duc­tion of Space­craft Pub­lish­ing Pro­pri­etary Lim­it­ed, autho­rised rep­re­sen­ta­tive of AFSL 520442, AFS rep­re­sen­ta­tive num­ber 001292718. Please don’t make any invest­ment deci­sions based sole­ly on lis­ten­ing to this pod­cast. This is pre­sent­ed as gen­er­al advice only, not per­son­al finan­cial advice. We don’t know your per­son­al finan­cial cir­cum­stances. Please see a finan­cial plan­ner before mak­ing any invest­ing deci­sions.