Transcript QAV 359

File: QAV 359 – Cameron Williams

Duration: 54:26

Cameron Reilly: 00:04
Welcome back to QAV or if it’s your first time. Welcome to the QAV podcasts. Now, this is a podcast where we talk about investing, but occasionally we have guests on, well, actually almost every week we have a guest on one of our episodes. This week, our guest is Cameron Williams, sports editor on channel nine, today’s show, and the six o’clock news. Cam’s been a listener of the show for the last twelve months and we have decided to have him on, but before we get into investing with Cam, of course, because he is who he is. We’re going to talk about a little bit of sport. So, if you’re not interested in the sports, skip forward ten minutes and get into the investing side of things. But if you’re interested in what it means to be the sports editor at channel nine, or to hear us talk about the recent Mike Tyson fight or the time that Cam met Mike Tyson, and Muhammed Ali, then you might want to listen to the whole thing. Here it is, Cameron Williams.

Cameron Williams: 00:57
G’day mate. Can you hear me?

Tony Kynaston: 00:58
I can.

Cameron Williams: 00:59
Good. Oh, well, I’m well. Hi TK

Tony Kynaston: 01:03

Cameron Williams: 01:04

Tony Kynaston: 01:04
Hi Cameron. How are you?

Cameron Williams: 01:06 

I’m really well mate, have you been enjoying the punt lately?

Tony Kynaston: 01:10 

Well, I’m enjoying it, it’s not very profitable but it’s still fun.

Cameron Williams: 01:14 

Look, I backed 3-ude on Saturday, it said, and still lost on the day so…

Tony Kynaston: 01:21 

I had a similar one like that grand view terrace at ten to one and still lost about a hundred bucks on it.

Cameron Reilly: 01:27 

And I have no idea what either of you are talking about but I did in preparation and research for this. Get up early this morning and watch the Tyson fight. I thought that’s what we’d be talking about.

Cameron Williams: 01:40 

Yeah. Oh, did you record it? It was on yesterday. Yeah.

Cameron Reilly: 01:42 

I watched the rec… I watched the YouTube.

Cameron Williams: 01:44 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, look uh, what did you think?

Cameron Reilly: 01:47 

I’m glad it wasn’t me in the ring with Tyson that’s all I mean. He might be fifty-four and

slow but, Jesus, when he threw punches, I felt it, man, just even watching it.

Cameron Williams: 01:59 

Both of them have still got some hand speed and, you know, clearly no invest. No interest in hurting each other

Cameron Reilly: 02:06 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cameron Williams: 02:09 

Right, yeah. You might google some street stuff of Tyson shadowboxing for fans. It’s awesomely scary, awesomely scary.

Cameron Reilly: 02:19 

Man, like even the speed I expected him to punch hard but a few times even in like round three or four he just came out a few times and there was just this flurry of fists going and I was like, holy shit, that’s terrifying.

Cameron Williams: 02:33 

Yes. Yeah, well, I had the great fortune of going to cover his unification fights, and I met Muhammad Ali which was like the biggest in my life at that time and still is the only autograph I’ve ever asked for I think but I met a girl there who was the sister of a guy sparring with Tyson and she got me up into his room at the MGM and I had an interview that went kind of around the world with him where he said for the first time, I’m sure he said it since that he used to…because, you know, “class doesn’t treat me like a person

and you know that I’m only 19″ and he said “you’re so young how did you get this job”. I’m sounding more like Michael Jackson. But he had this strange lisp and he sounded so young, you know, he was nineteen but he admitted that and then that he pulls on a ski

mask and goes down to Brownsville and mugs people because it make him feel centered. So, he was a heavyweight champion of the world saying that he goes back home and mugs people and anonymously just because that feels normal.

Cameron Reilly: 03:46 

Holy shit. So, when was that?

Cameron Williams: 03:48 

That was 1987. March of 1987.

Cameron Reilly: 03:53 

Holy shit. How old were you?

Cameron Williams: 03:55 

Uh, 24. 

Cameron Reilly: 03:57 

Wow, that must have been mind-blowing.

Cameron Williams: 04:01  

Oh, it really was. It really was and to see that the Closeted world that they live in and, you know, I’ve seen other examples of it since but I’d never been to America before so I hadn’t seen all of these great stars and the way they’re treated but he was just the fat pig that they kept feeding, nurturing, protecting, guarding. It was…it’s no way to live and it’s…

Cameron Reilly: 04:26 


Cameron Williams: 04:27 

It’s funny. He keeps saying he feels like he’s lucky to be alive. I think he was completely depressed through most of his life, yeah.

Cameron Reilly: 04:35 

And you got to meet Ali, you said?

Cameron Williams: 04:36 

Yes, I did. He…it was such a great trip because Crocodile Dundee was pretty fresh in people’s minds over there and a fellow heard me checking in at the hotel and he had the big Stetson on and the full cowboy, you know, rhinestone cowboy, Glenn Campbell looks and he had a framed signed Muhammad Ali photograph with gloves and stuff that went with it and he said, “would you want to make some money?” You know, I’m immediately suspicious. He said, “look, just talk to me the way you talk normally”. So, of course, I was banging on a real Australian accent mate. A bit of rhyming slang never did anybody any harm and we just had this conversation people gathered round and he sold that thing for over twelve thousand U.S. in about ten minutes with a big crowd around us. Just someone came in and paid cash for it. So, he slung me a couple of hundred bucks

and you know that was the start of it all, that’s when I met this girl called Desirae who was Tyson sparring partner’s sister.

Cameron Reilly:

I’m glad I’m not the only one who does that whenever I go over to the U.S. to hang out with Chrissy’s family. I’m always putting it on like that mate, yeah. The vaccine gets really…she goes “oh, will you just stop that, you’re embarrassing me.” Oh no, they love it over here.

Cameron Williams: 05:52 

Well, they do, they do. I don’t think it carries as much cachets as it used to be but hoax did us all a favor for about ten years.

Cameron Reilly: 05:59 

Yeah. Well, I scored an American wife out of it. So, I’m grateful.

Cameron Williams: 06:03 

Yeah, I know she probably thinks you’re some frontiersman still. 

Cameron Reilly: 06:08 

Still. Yeah, yeah, I’m just…I’m getting back into it one of these days

Tony Kynaston: 06:11 

Well, we went to we’re in America around that same time and people would walk up and say “God hi”.

Cameron Williams: 06:15 


Tony Kynaston: 06:16 

Pardon? What? Talking to me?

Cameron Williams: 06:22 

Good hi mate.

Tony Kynaston: 06:23 

Good hi mate.

Cameron Reilly: 06:25 

Well welcome to the QUV show. Cameron Williams, how is your Monday morning been going? You’re back at home already. You’ve done your stint for the day or do you have to go back in?

Cameron Williams: 06:37 

No, I have to go back in and the last hour or so has left me a bit sweaty because I couldn’t find our damned, what’s it called, the elf on a shelf which you don’t have for young enough

kids but the elf on the shelf reappears on the first of December every year and then disappears after Christmas and he’s in a different position every time, that they wake up the kids wake up and I thought I’d lost cookie the elf on the shelf, I found it.

Cameron Reilly: 07:09 

But it was found. Oh, that’s good. 

Cameron Williams: 07:10 

Christmas is not here.

Cameron Reilly: 07:12 

Thought you were talking about the VHS of the Will Ferrell film or something. So, why don’t we like…we’ll get into investing in money stuff but let’s give people your background story because most people probably haven’t heard it, I suspect. You grew up not far from where I grew up, right? Country Queensland.

Cameron Williams: 07:36 

That’s exactly right. Emerald in Central Queensland which these days is an orcharding area

because they’ve got a very big dam there and a regular wall.

Cameron Reilly: 07:46 

Wow, right.

Cameron Williams: 07:47 

But my father was there building that. He was an engineer on the roadworks and the bridges approaching Fairburn dam, as it was called then and I, you know, I guess, I’m a product of that kind of kind of youth. I like horses, I like outdoors, and I moved not long after I was born to Rockhampton which is just another big central, quite bigger central Queensland Town, and there I discovered the coast and swimming and stuff like that. But I always graduated towards communication type studies and communication type areas of

my life, I have developed in a business sense Because I started at the career mile as a cadet, writing for them and quickly realized that I wanted to write about sport that led to a job at the Australian in Melbourne that led to television jobs in Sydney predominantly and now I’m the sports editor at channel nine. We’ve just completed a big move from the original home of tv in Australia Nineteen Fifty-Six was in Willoughby and we’ve just left those Willoughby studios behind which is a bit sad but we’re now to brand new digs in one Denison Street, North Sydney and that’s got its teething problems but it’s a great building and we’re enjoying being there.

Tony Kynaston09:08 

Wow. Yeah. I’ve been to the Liberty Studios and to Emerald I was working there in the nineties, I think we were into…I was there trying to help our fuel distributor. I was working for Shell and it was year four of a five-year drought. So, I hope the Fairburn dam has turned things around because it was tough making money in the tail end of a drought after four


Cameron Williams: 09:32 

When it gets dry out there, Tony it gets just really dry and the river that goes through town is called the Nagoa and it’s mainly usually a no-goa because it’s often very dry and the Shell in town in Emerald in, you know, in the sixties I was born in Nineteen Sixty-Three. There was a guy called Georgie Paul and I’ll never forget him because he had a thumb amputated in a machinery accident but my mum and dad told me that he sucked his thumb when he was a boy, so, shell and, you know, what do you call it, I guess, the Terrence for children are interlinked for me. So, nice pound though our phone number out

there was three-six-O. So, full place but it was a great place to grow up, lots of space you could have a horse, you could have, you know, keep birds and things and people were good. You could go to anyone’s door; it was a great place to grow up.

Cameron Reilly: 10:34 

You still got family there?

Cameron Williams: 10:36 

No. No, we all moved. My mum we moved to Rockhampton first of all and then to Brisbane and my dad died this time last year but my mum is still in Brisbane and she’s got a lovely house in Kangaroo Point on the river there and she’s really…she’s the start of my

investment career because right from the first time I earned a dollar she said you’ve got to

start investing this in property and I’ve always been a bit of a share naysayer up until recently and Tony you’re the bloke who convinced me otherwise and I’ve always treated my property investments as investments and the share market as a kind of gambling den and it’s only now that I’ve realized how much easier it is to keep yourself

organized in the share market and manage your portfolio of shares and still get growth and dividends. It’s just that, you know, do what you trust. I trusted bricks and mortar

and, you know, it’s done reasonably well for me but I’ve got rid of some of those investments to go heavily into the share market these days.

Tony Kynaston: 11:39 

Yeah, good for you. It’s…but it’s a good perspective to bring to share market investing, I think. If you’ve had that property experience because, as you know, you can’t check the price of the house every day, you can’t sell it tomorrow if you don’t like it. you can’t buy it back the day after so that’s a good, I think that’s a good, really good training ground and perspective to bring to the share market too.

Cameron Williams: 11:59 

Yes, and there’s lots of traps and pitfalls and it’s more difficult to manage at arm’s length than you might expect. You know, I don’t regret any of it because over time, you know, if you’re patient in the property market and you’re not, you know, buying silly investments like at Rabina at the Gold Coast where I didn’t do buy one place but generally, they’ve been, you know, slow producers and I guess it’s been my first method of saving. I’ve always been a bloke who on one hand I do like gambling on the horses like you do. I’ve got a gambling streak but I like to know that I own the bricks that I live in. I’d rather have the bricks than the furniture and, you know, I did sleep on the floor a lot as a young worker but there’s nothing wrong with that. Rewards later. You don’t think you’ll ever get old when you start out but it happens soon enough.

Tony Kynaston: 12:55 

Yeah, yeah. I’m the same. You know, we owned an investment property with a mate to start off with and I remember going in there after work completely buggered putting up trestles painting the inside of the house until one or two in the morning. Packing it all up again and going back to the bed for a few hours on the floor and then going into work. So, yes, I can relate to that. 

Cameron Williams: 13:16 

Yes, it’s hard work but good training, good training and you know, I certainly had no specific skills that I, you know, I wasn’t always going to be a doctor or a pilot or a

bricklayer. I didn’t have any specific training. So, I always knew that I was going to

have to be careful early on with whatever money I had and it’s been productive. So, you know, I love that about your method that day that you explained compounding interest

and the savings that you can make by going to a public school rather than a private school. It cemented my belief that QAV and your way to go is the way to go.

I’ve told this to Cambo already but my primary driver for being involved with you guys is to, is that, so that I can teach the method to my children and to manage what wealth I’ve

got in an easy fairly as hands-on as you want it to be but it’s a low-risk low input method of making sure that you’re getting a good return for your savings or your investments and, you know, I got lucky a year or so ago. Can I tell you a quick investing story?

Cameron Reilly & Tony Kynaston: 14:29 


Cameron Williams: 14:30 

I over… I overheard a conversation on a plane from Perth to Sydney and I heard this fellow. One of the things that cut through the conversation because I was trying to sleep. He said he’d just sold his gold mine and that he was going to take a year off and travel the world and find out what his new investment was going to be and I thought God I’d like to do that. Yes, I’ve just sold my gold boy. Anyway, so, I listened it more carefully and just got, you know, whatever snatches of the conversation that I could and I noticed that he had a bit of a speech habit of saying “new” and staying “new” instead of “knew” but he was an Australian guy and I thought that was a bit unusual I wonder where he picked that up, I thought he must have lived in America or something. Anyway, must be two years later about twenty-ten or twenty eleven I heard a guy speaking on the radio about Graphite. I had no interest in Graphite but he kept saying he was an Australian guy and he kept saying “new”. So, I worked out this guy was a fellow called Mark Thompson and then he’d sold a gold mine and he’d traveled the world and he decided that he was going to buy at a very cheap price a Graphite resource in Sweden and to cut the long story short it’s called Talga Group. They’ve firmed up a very, very high-grade Graphite and Graphene resource. They have partnered with Oxford University, Germany, Sweden they’ve got low very…very green low-cost power from Sweden. They’ve got factories being built in Germany with German import and money. They won the Faraday challenge and they build the anodes for batteries and they own the resource, they own the IP for how to turn that into an anode. They own all of these very high substantially difficult things to copy. There’s the moat that you talk about and slowly the market’s picking it up. So, I’m in at an average of about twenty-seven, twenty-eight cents

and they’re now up to over two dollars, so, this is my Facebook and it’s been a winner for me but I haven’t sold any. When I do sell some, Tony, everything I’ve got is going to be invested, QAV forever because that’s the way to stay safe.

Tony Kynaston: 16:51 

Yes, well. Yes, that’s really nice to know and good luck with the graphing. I know Graphite went through a bit of a booming and a bust probably in the last sort of three or four years. There’s lots of new mines coming on but it’s turning around a bit now, I think.

Cameron Williams: 17:07 

Yes, and it’s not a Graphite play it’s an anode producer.

Tony Kynaston: 17:10 

Pride, okay. Yep.

Cameron Williams: 17:10 

They own their own resource and its high quality and it requires a lot less input chemically and in terms of heat to transform it into the products they need. So, all the big batch manufacturers like CATL, they spend, you know, hundreds and hundreds of kilowatts of energy producing their anode material. This is green it’s European has legislated supply chains that have to be green. They have to be sourced from Europe. They’re the first mover and really the only ones that are in this position so far. They’ve had connections with we believe with Tesla and, you know, that’s my punt.

Tony Kynaston: 17:55 

Yes, good and…

Cameron Reilly: 17:56 

But believe in something.

Tony Kynaston: 17:57 

Yes, following a tip, hey. It’s all your own tip, I guess.

Cameron Williams: 18:01 

Yes, well I stumbled on it myself but because I was very interested in him and I know you’re not into the charisma of these guys because they are all salesmen but he was

not selling anything to anyone he was just speaking about what he wanted to do and he’s a… he obviously had a high-grade brain and I just thought that I’d learn as much

about him and his company as I could and I’ve just kept adding to it.

Tony Kynaston: 18:21 

Yes, that’s good. You reminded me, Cam, of…just a, … I guess a play that I’ve done before in the past if you can find people who’ve unsuccessfully out of one mine and

they’ll sell out and they’ll pop up in another mine and its early stages and it’ll be cheap

and it’s not it’s worthwhile following them. In some, you know, a lot of instances, I mean, for me as for as, that for this year medals that wasn’t his first investment. A guy called Kerry Hamide, I think his name was, with a company called Jubilee Mines was a one of one of my best investments in the past and he’s now popped up in some other things. So, yes, it’s, you know, you’re following the money. These guys are really good at what they do and when they come back it can be a good investment. 

Cameron Reilly: 19:04 

Chris Ellison’s another one with mineral resources.

Tony Kynaston: 19:06 

Right, yes, yes.

Cameron Williams: 19:08 

But you’re a charismatic guy.

Tony Kynaston: 19:09 

No, no.

Cameron Williams: 19:11 

I went to that dinner that we had in the cross. The first one and you mentioned that

Credit Corp had, which was taking a bath at the time because of COVID, had done that before and that you had snapped it up before. So, I tucked away a bit of that without

without applying the QAV principles, just applying that, I believe, in Tony Kynaston principle and that’s done well.

Tony Kynaston: 19:36 

Yes, it’s been good. I bought some too.

Cameron Williams: 19:39 


Tony Kynaston: 19:39 

Yes, it’s a good company.

Cameron Reilly: 19:40 

Well, that’s great. So, getting back to your kids. How old are your kids?

Cameron Williams: 19:43 

Archie is twelve…going on twelve and Remy is eight. So, I haven’t…failed to get them completely interested in money and what it…where it comes from and how difficult it is to make yet but this is the year that I’ve bought them a little ETF. Their savings were enough to justify buying an ETF. We decided that we were going to invest in Aasia as an emerging collection of nations and there’s an ETF called IEM and they’re up fifteen percent on their money.

Tony Kynaston: 20:22 

Good and they understand what that means?

Cameron Williams: 20:25 

No, no. It’s completely unreal to them. It’s just numbers it doesn’t mean anything to them but I am starting to get them to think of companies as businesses.

Cameron Reilly: 20:36 


Cameron Williams: 20:37 

And to tell me why they like products, you know, they like apple products. They like the iPad that they play with and what do you like about it and what don’t you like about other iPads and would you buy from this company and not that company. So, they’re starting to think about companies as living organisms that you can own a chunk of.

Tony Kynaston: 20:58 

Oh, that’s a great way of doing it and your oldest might be getting close to job employment age too which is another big step, I think. Get them a job?

Cameron Williams: 21:08 

Yes, look at…

Tony Kynaston:

The value for money.

Cameron Williams: 21:10 

Yes, you know, that kind of McDonald’s experience I think is invaluable, and you know, it’s just interesting I think that… I think Cam you’ve been very successful in bringing out the entrepreneur in your kids and it’s just a matter of, you know because young kids come to me all the time say how can I get into you know a position in television where’s it all going and the honest answer is I… it’s changing very quickly. I don’t know where it’s all going but I just tell them if you’ve got a belief in, you know, being able to communicate you’ll always be employed. But I, you know, my trouble is I can’t imagine

where that next thing is or I’d go and do it but these kids that if you teach them that being the innovator and being the ideas maker is…I think that’s more interesting than going down the traditional “I’m going to be a lawyer”, “I’m going to be a dentist”.

I’m going to make things happen. I think is a great Germ to try and instill in the kids and I’m hoping that they’re getting some of that

Tony Kynaston: 22:12 

I remember when my daughter was a senior in Toronto and I’d check to her friends and occasionally the class and talk about what they were going to do and they sort of wanted to go to university, didn’t know what they wanted to do, you know, following in their parent’s footsteps et cetera, et cetera. And I said well, you know, why don’t you think about bypassing university get a good idea and start up something and, you know, you’ve got enough rich friends here that can invest it with you and pass on, you know, their knowledge to you and that was kind of like mind-blowing for most of the kids. No

one did it but I think that’s…I think you’re right. That’s got to be installed into the kids

somehow get out there hustling.

Cameron Williams: 22:47 

Yes. The life, you know, the way that we’re going to live and the way we’re going to make our money in the future I think is changing pretty rapidly. There’ll be some constants but I think people who are adept and don’t get locked into that “I’ve got to

work for this company for the rest of my life”, mentality. You’re going to be doing better.

Tony Kynaston: 23:08 

Yes, I mean it’s different these days. I think they’re seeing with low-interest rates maybe but there seems to be a lot more money out there for people starting up ventures, just in

general. That’s my sort of, you know, sort of statistical analysis involving a sample of one but also to, I think, if I look back on my career, I mean I when I was at UNI, I was holding down five part-time jobs just hustling from one thing to the next trying to make money and even though I worked corporate for a long time it was you know I had four or five offers on the go and negotiated. Put one up against the other all the time until I got a good deal and, so yes, those kinds of skills I think need to somehow get taught the kids at a young age hustle and negotiate.

Cameron Williams: 23:52 

Yep. I agree. And I don’t think the education system is really set up for that so it comes from parents or friends and family you know, I think the only thing I’ve done for my boys is they’ve seen me out there having a go, failing most of the time but out there having a crack and you know I think they both went well if dad can do it then we can probably do it better because he’s an idiot and we’re a lot smarter than he is.

Cameron Reilly: 24:23 

But of course, the example you give Cameron is that you show that if you put the work in you get the results. You’ve got to find something that you’re prepared to work at, you know.

Cameron Williams: 24:34 

In fact, I show that the opposite that you can work your ass off and still not get any results but the work is there, the work’s there. I’ve been admiring your Instagram photographs lately I figured this was your new career trajectory. You’re setting yourself up as a behind the scenes photographer very artistic you’re behind the scenes stuff at the show.

Cameron Reilly: 24:56 

Oh, thank you mate. I’m looking I’m just a hobbyist. I thought that it was worth recording some of the final moments over at Willoughby and you know some great characters have been through that building and a lot of them still work there so I just wanted to capture some of the people that have been there for a long time some of the fresher faces as well and say goodbye to the old asbestos-ridden joint.

Cameron Williams: 25:22 

But really, I mean, I’ve been there well at least once but it’s what a tv station should look like. What you think it looks like before you go it’s got a big aerial on top big antenna broadcasting aerial, you know, the reception’s full of photos of the celebrities and you go inside and there’s all these studios that are big and open and they move things around. Yes. It’s your classic old style isn’t. It’s not like you walk into somewhere today and it’s a panel like a desk with a couple of small cameras in front of it.

Cameron Reilly: 25:54 

That’s it, there. Okay.

Cameron Williams: 25:55 

Isn’t? Yes, and the cameras are robotic. Sanders are robotic but from there from externally it just looks like any other office block it’s a beautiful building by the way but it does look like a corporate block rather than, you know, a factory of dreams and magic.

Cameron Reilly: 26:13 

Yes, right. Before we get back to investing, I want to talk more about the sports business I remember when we first had that first dinner that you were at early this year. I don’t remember when it was but it was just as the Rona was starting to kick in and we were about to go into the first lockdown so it was sort of February, March and, you know, I know you were saying then well, “Shit, what am I going to do this year if there’s no sport? What’s actually what have you ended up doing during the sport lockdown? How have you kept yourself busy?

Cameron Williams: 26:50 

Well, for ten weeks there was no sport anywhere in the world other than horse racing. Horse racing didn’t stop and that’s a great tribute to Peter Velandes who has worked miracles through these tough times.

Cameron Reilly: 27:08 

Who’s that?

Cameron Williams: 27:09 

I’m sorry Peter Velandes is the chairman of the National Rugby League or the Australian Rugby League Commission. He’s also the boss of Racing New South Wales and he’s a can-do kind of guy and, you know, he can be a bit abrupt but he’s very clever. Very, very clever and very determined. He kept horse racing going he just took the steps that had to be taken put the jockeys in a bubble, he isolated, he kept you know all the right people year gear around, he kicked all the punters off course and he just ran it in a bubble and then he ran rugby league in a bubble when they said they couldn’t do it and by the end of well not by the end of it but within a few weeks the NFL was ringing him and saying, “Peter how did you do this?” And, you know, they’ve been less successful because they can’t keep their two hundred-million-dollar players in bubbles they just won’t do it. Whereas we were more I think disciplined at realizing that we needed a team approach to keep things going. But for ten weeks we had very little stuff to talk about except when will rugby league be back, when will you know all of the other sports the IFL, the tennis, the cricket. When will they all be back? And for ten weeks thankfully we made it interesting and what we did find was one of the benefits was because people were accepting lower quality video output like the Zoom meeting, we’re on and we could just quickly speak to, you know, a manly or a bulldog’s football player and because they were at home instead of in front of their teammates, they often gave us more in-depth answers and more considered answers and we saw a more emotional and more sensitive side of their responses. So, I think that part of it was really beneficial but

it’s become a lot easier now that we’ve got real sport to talk about.

Tony Kynaston: 29:00 

I heard someone who worked for Peter Velande’s interview and they said, you know, how did he do it, how did he get racing to continue and how did he get the NRL to continue, blatantly. And this person said well Peter always starts from the point of view of what the success looks like and then that you work back from there and I think that’s a really, really good life perspective if you’re in business. In any sort of endeavor really what does success look like?

Cameron Williams: 29:25 


Tony Kynaston: 29:26 

Define that and then work back from there.

Cameron Williams: 29:27 

And he’s fearless. He may have fears but he never exhibits them and you know what I think he’s quick to adapt to when he knows he’s wrong he will acknowledge that he’ll give you your point and then then he’ll work with that. He’s not just a crash through type of guy because those guys eventually hit a wall that they can’t break.

Tony Kynaston: 29:46 

And no one will work for them either.

Cameron Williams: 29:47 

That’s right, that’s right. 

Cameron Reilly: 29:50 

You know, I found the whole Zoom interview thing with the late-night shows where they’ve been interviewing celebrities just at home actually far more interesting and engaging it’s less fake seems to be more real I actually wonder how that’s going to change things moving forwards as they I mean I think the U.S. is a long way from getting back to normal but they are back in the studio I think some of them but, how do you think it’s going to have like in terms of long-term impact for what you do. Has there been any positives come out of this that will change how you approach your job next year?

Cameron Williams: 30:30 

Look, I think the major benefit is that people are more accepting of lower quality material in terms of, you know, technical lower quality material that’s a good thing because it makes us very flexible means that we don’t have to spend as much money as we used to get stuff done but you know when it comes to actual broadcasting of live sports you want that in your four-k HD, you know, you want the best experience you can for that. So, I think all those advances…advancements are going to keep going but I think it’s still a little too early to tell if Zoom is going to be the…be all and end all into the future because I don’t really buy into this empty city sort of philosophy that people won’t want to come back into town and they’ll all do their work from home I think that’ll drive most people nuts eventually. If you’re a solitary person or comfortable in your own, you know, quiet environment that works brilliantly for you but I think a lot of people are more hurt animal, more gregarious, they need the excitement, you know, we’ve just moved into an open plan office which I was dreading not because I wanted my privacy so much but I just didn’t want to hear what everyone else was saying or their conversations and stuff but I found it to be so much more social and fun than I thought it’s energizing to be in those spaces. But you do need a hidey-hole every now and then and so I think, you know, once again sample of one, Tony, I think that you know, maybe the cities won’t be as busy, the office blocks won’t be as busy as before they might be repurposed in some way but I think people will still want to come back and rub shoulders when they can, when it’s safe and they feel comfortable again.

Cameron Reilly: 32:15 

I was hoping you were going to tell me that our big plan for you and Tony in an apollo tourism van driving around the country was the next step in the progression.

Cameron Williams: 32:25 

Mate you keep that’s an heir shirt for you and for everybody looking apollo. I did make a list of shares that I’ve been in and out of since I discovered QAV and CIA’s at the top that’s a success story.

Cameron Reilly: 32:40 

Yes. that’s good.

Cameron Williams: 32:41 

But apollo was the next one that I got and, you know I stopped going in and out in and out i just stayed in it too long and but you know what it’s coming back I believe in apollo #[Laughter]#. 

Cameron Reilly: 32:55 

You’re the only one who does. #Laughter#

Tony Kynaston: 32:58 

I was in Sydney CBD just before I came onto this call and it to me it seems as busy as it always has been and I, you know, I think there’ll be less people working in there because I think some people, you know, have worked out don’t like being at home.

Cameron Williams: 33:15 


Tony Kynaston: 33:15 

I think human nature plays a part and I think if I was one of ten direct reports and the boss was in the city and two or three of them started to go in to work with the boss and started to get a bit of a leg up because of that the other seven would be in there straight away so I think that will kind of drive people back to the city as well.

Cameron Williams: 33:36 

Yes. And you know when you do your Zoom meetings and you’ve got the panel up there you can’t see who’s off to the side and what the body language is. You can’t read the subtleties of the room and I think that when you’re making important decisions about companies and about your own careers and you want to be convinced that you’ve got a good handle on things. I think face-to-face is the way to go.

Tony Kynaston:  33:59 

Yes, I agree.

Cameron Reilly: 34:00 

So back to investing then Cam, what how did you discover QAV can you remember and why what we what were you looking for at the time?

Cameron Williams: 34:08 

Okay. Well, every year in January except next January I go to the Australian open and it’s two weeks locked in a hotel room, you know, when I’m in my downtime it’s a time of reflection. I go down the road always stay at the same place. I go down the road and I buy my new undies and t-shirts for the year. Very interesting but basically, I do reassess, you know, it’s that period after Christmas. I’m by myself, don’t have the kids running around and I do reassess what my targets are for the year so I sit there on my new t-shirts and undies and this year I got Air pods. So, I needed to listen to podcasts because I had Air Pods and I found a murder mystery one that was quite good and somewhere in the mix there I saw this thing about how to buy shares of quality and value and I listened to you. I thought you were kind of acerbic and funny and you know I’ve changed my mind about that. I thought Tony sounded like…I kept waiting for Tony to tell me what he wanted from me because I thought he why…I’m a cynical bugger thought why is he doing this and as soon as I told my wife about it, she said well what’s he wants what’s he selling? I said honestly just listen to the guy and you know what the truth that comes out from listening to you guys is pretty apparent you know I only have to listen to a couple of episodes to realize that Tony doesn’t give a rats, if you listen or not; he doesn’t give a rats if you follow him or not; and he doesn’t care what he says to people. I enjoy his interviews with other people that are peddling various products or ideas because in essence you boil most of them down and it’s nothing. It’s just an idea and they can’t explain their own ideas very frequently. Whereas Tony can explain his and I like the simplicity of it and I did believe in it as a kind of, you know, as the ten commandments but we’ve got about 30 commandments here. But I like that too it’s flexible, you know, I could go on and on. I think it’s a very convincing way to not just grow wealth but to manage wealth in a low-risk low-import kind of way.

Cameron Reilly: 36:47 

Well, the big take away from me from that is that celebrities buy new undies once a year I mean I run mine down until, you know, there’s no threads left in them and they’ve fallen down and even then, I find it hard to give them up so one day that’s my that’s on my bucket list now is to buy new undies every year.

Cameron Williams: 37:06 

But I do a lot of live tv so you’ve got to keep your undies, fresh, okay. 

Cameron Reilly: 37:15 

Yes, Okay. Yes. that’s good that’s, you know, I think what you what you highlighted there is is the big challenge with a lot of this I think when I write when…when I run Facebook advertising, promoting this it’s always fun for me the number of people that jump on the Facebook ad and go it’s a crock of shit.  It’s bullshit and I’m like dude have you even…have you even listened to it before you assume that like. Well, I but I understand it because most people try to peddle financial advice out there probably are full of shit and yes, it’s how we differentiate.

Cameron Williams: 37:59 

I had a great idea of I don’t know how you go with Facebook and they would be listening so don’t say anything nasty but I decided years ago and there is a company called Pointsbet that has managed to achieve what I set out to achieve I thought that the way into the freeing up of the American betting market which from about three or four years ago looked inevitable Ii thought I’m going to I’m going to start up a podcast not a podcast actually but a Facebook page an NFL spoof page, you know, a funny page about NFL characters and games and personalities and once I had you know a million eyeballs I would sell that information to an American bookmaker and take the trailing commissions from that because it’s a very successful model here but too late to get into. So, I thought okay you know the dominoes started to drop over there as

far as legislation with bookmaking was concerned sports betting but and we did get quite a few you know, followers but at one point Facebook just shut us down because of the whole fake news thing became important to them and we were clearly stating that our news was fake and that it was you know a comedy page it was a spoof. It was stated everywhere but they don’t reinstate they don’t listen they, don’t reinstate we tried to set it up with different credit cards and different, what do you call it, different IPs and everything they knew who we were straight away it’s incredible.

Cameron Reilly: 39:36 

They shut down my Facebook advertising for QAV a few months ago sort of leading up to the U.S. election and the reason for it they said was we were peddling something that was fraudulent and I responded and appealed and said we’re just advertising a podcast nothing like no, no, no discussion, no right of reply it’s just not, you know, they don’t give a shit. It’s frustrating.

Cameron Williams: 40:05 

There’s got to be a better Facebook out there because I know they’ve got that incredible first-mover advantage but it’s such a clumsy thing to use. I hate it, I hate Facebook. I don’t know what you’re poking me and sending me reminders. Well to me it’s a failure of capitalism that there hasn’t been a replacement. Facebook has been a disaster in many ways for well over a decade. A lot of people hate it, a lot of people complain about it. Where’s the competitor that capitalism is supposed to provide us when there’s an opportunity for a superior service. It’s just not there because Facebook’s got the things stitched up and I think there’s too many venture capitalists with too much money tied up in it they don’t want to support their competitive product.

Tony Kynaston & Cameron Reilly 40:53:


Cameron Williams: 40:54 

A guy that seems to know. He says that if you spend a certain amount of money on Facebook advertising for your company that you can consistently make a return of two percent or something. So, if you spend, you know, if you spend a hundred million dollars on Facebook advertising, you’ll get two percent of that back as a profit because it’s just such a great engine and it just spins off money well maybe that’s true but it just doesn’t. It’s got nothing about it that is useful, friendly or even just simple and easy to operate. I find the whole thing really headache-inducing.

Cameron Reilly: 41:36 

That’s just getting back to sports reporting I think the big winner out of the Tyson fight was Snoop Dogg. 

Cameron Williams: 41:40 

He still got it hey he was great.

Cameron Reilly: 41:43 

He was great I mean you’re going to bring a little bit of Snoop to your commentary from now on you’re going to smoked up a little bit before you go on air.

Cameron Williams: 41:51 

I think that would be fantastic he’s got those menu log things happening, you know, I thought that the fact that he was doing that was a sign that it was all over for the dog but he was great yesterday.

Cameron Reilly: 42:08

He was the best thing in the whole deal. I don’t know that it was great for boxing…the whole affair I mean they made a couple of ten million dollars each allegedly so they benefited but I sat through it waiting for something to happen. Glimpses of the old guys there I suppose there’s money to be made and putting on these circus shows.

Cameron Williams: 42:26 

Well, I think part of it was the Jake Paul fight for people who don’t follow Jake Paul or fighting neither which I follow really but my kids are a big Jake Paul not sure fans but they’re aware of him big YouTube star and that seems to be a big thing I think he was fighting a former NBA star so this thing about people moving from social media to boxing

is becoming big and I think that’s the next step for you and I, Tony. We’re going to put on a demonstration boxing match you and I. 

Tony Kynaston: 42:57 


Cameron Williams: 42:58 

Yes, Yes. 

Tony Kynaston: 43:01 

You should do it on a park bench.

Cameron Williams: 43:04 

I see…I think I could probably take you although you’ve got some height and some reach on me, I think I could probably but I’d be too scared to hit you

would be the thing because you’re the also you know you’re the guru so I think you know it’d be interesting to see how the odds would come down on that one. 

Tony Kynaston: 43:21 

Yes. I think you’d probably get the odds. 

Cameron Williams: 43:24 

Until they worked out that I don’t actually want to hit you.

Cameron Reilly: 43:29 

Yes, that’s right. I’ll frame a market real quick right in Europe. There is a hundred to one on to win because you don’t want anything to happen to Tony.

Cameron Williams: 43:36 

So, the next time we come to Sydney to do well Tony’s in Sydney, you’re in Sydney. When I come to Sydney to do our Sydney event instead of dinner let’s do that, we’ll do a boxing match and you can commentate, promote it, market it and we’ll share the takings of three of us.

Cameron Reilly: 43:52 

Sure, let’s do that.

Tony Kynaston: 43:54 

And one of us will lie down when we know which side of the betting the money’s for


Cameron Reilly: 44:00 

All right so let’s wrap up with some investing wisdom from you Cambo. What have you learned over the last year or two or in your own investing? Is there any pros or cons that you want to highlight for us?

Cameron Williams: 44:17 

Look my dad was not a big investor but he said early on you want to become friendly with a good accountant and a good lawyer because those are the people that will help you make good decisions through the rest of your life. I’ve managed to do that and I think that was excellent advice and when I switched accountants you know in my mid-late thirties. The quality of my advice got even better and I think that was that you know I think that…thinking you can do everything yourself is not clever. I also think that you have to be patient, particularly since you know all of my investments early on we’re in property and you don’t see quick returns for them you just have to think of it as a slow method of saving which will escalate accelerator as time goes by but when it comes to the share market I was slow to realize the benefits of the share market really, really slow and I thank you guys for that because I’ve just lucked on to a couple of shares in my life, I’ve lost a lot of money just punting on shares and you know those are capital losses carried forward so you can pick it up on the hurdy-gurdy but I would say the thing is

get good advice; be patient and; you know only trust your instincts to a certain extent that you have to really trust the quality of the people around you because if unless you’re an expert at it yourself you know you’ve got to spend the money and then the time on developing the relationships to get that expertise around you.

Tony Kynaston: 45:59 

Yes, I agree. What about the show, any suggestions for changes? What do you like? What don’t you like?

Cameron Williams: 46:04 

Look I…my irritation with this show if I was watching this show would be that we haven’t been very specific about investing. I think that that so long as the overall tenure of the show is pretty hardcore about its investing and not assuming that everyone knows everything and explaining in detail stuff that you’re talking about. I think you guys are on a long-term winner because anyone who goes back to the start of the series and learns the method can grow with you guys and you see it happening, you know. I’ve been on with you for a year but you can see the growth happening compared with the, you know, the index and I think that the one thing that I struggle with is I’m no good at the spreadsheets. So, I rely on updated spreadsheets to see where you guys are at and

I guess you know having feel feeling like that I now grasp what your concept is. I reckon that a vast lot of the value that I get for spending my subscription is to get those spreadsheets.

Tony Kynaston: 47:22 

Yes, okay.  That’s. Yes, that’s a good point. When we’re not trying to give tips but hopefully it’s a that’s a and the buy list is reasonably long so you couldn’t buy all of it so hopefully, it’s a kicking off point for you to do your own investigation.

Cameron Williams: 47:36 

Well and that’s what you’ve ignited to me and so it came the timing was good with

COVID, everyone had a bit more time and I’ve enjoyed investigating the shares that are on your list and you know I don’t have to go broader than that list to find something that I feel that I might be interested in and if it’s not if there’s no buy signal there with the three-point line I won’t buy it and I’ll go and look at another one but I don’t necessarily

you know adopt everything that you’re doing it’s just an excellent guide, an excellent guide.

Tony Kynaston: 48:09 

Good. Well, thank you very much. Now do you have any broadcasting tips

for a novice podcaster like myself?

Cameron Williams: 48:16 

I’m just looking at my background here I’ve got up my background game [Laughter]. No, I but I think you the ultimate thing about broadcasting is be true to yourself.

Tony Kynaston: 48:30 

And by looking at your background, it’s pretty good you’re the framed copy of the Winx

Jockey’s Jersey there.

Cameron Williams: 48:35 

Yes, that is a copy. I’m good mates with Chris Waller.

Tony Kynaston: 48:38 

Oh, really.

Cameron Williams: 48:40 

And I don’t have it here with me but I’m going to have it added to that thing. I just bought that at a charity night but I’ve got Win’s racing plate from the first Queen Elizabeth steak she won.

Tony Kynaston: 48:53 


Cameron Williams: 48:53 

Obviously, she had four plates on that day but I’ve only got.

Tony Kynaston: 48:57 

Do you to have any horses with Chris?

Cameron Williams: 48:58 

Yes, I have. Yes, only the one. He keeps telling me he’s going to find me the one but it was he likes all these French imports and I did have a horse called Studio with him that had four starts out here for four wins but it developed breathing problems so he had to be retired but if you’ve got time for one losing story this is why I’ve given up all my horse investments until Chris finds the one and Guy Mulcaster probably the be the guy who does that for him. He’s a great selector of horseflesh as you know but I had a horse in France a share of it. My sister bought a share and a horse in an auction. The next day the OTI, the managers of the syndicate rang her and said, “I’m sorry that horse that you bought has expired overnight it was dead when we sold it to you. It died in the paddock right during a storm so but what you know we can give you your money back or you can take the…you can take a share in another horse which we say is not as well-bred.

It’s a two-year-old it’s an athletic type but it’s under framed and it’s a…and it’s a rig which for Cambo’s convenience is that the horse’s testicles hadn’t dropped.” So, all in all, it seemed like a pretty useless horse but she kept that charity because the money was for a charity and it was called Prince Lotta-week and she asked me to watch its first race and after its first race, very, very handy race in a midweek in France. I rang up into OTI and said can I buy a share in it. So, I bought ten percent as well, and anyway cut a long story short, it used to have we win they win against a horse called Wild Geist which went onto win the arctic tree off and it finished up being its last race in France was the Criterium Discs. Whatever it’s called. Anyway, just include Criterium Discs include. Anyway, every horse in that race Geist led them up for two hundred meters on a heavy tan for eighteen hundred meters in a two-thousand-meter race and finished sixth. While Geist won the race. The horse that ran a long way last was Rekindling which won the Melbourne Cup. The Caulfield Cup winner was in there as well all of those horses have won either Derby’s or raced in one in AmericDerby and came out of the spell a timid frightened horse. I’m going to do…I’m going to go back one day with a little budget and I’m going to do a little just to satisfy my own curiosity. I’m going to do a documentary finding Prince Lauda Week because he got lost somewhere, you know they sent him up to the bush or up into the forests of Northern France for a spell and he came back a different horse. So, the trials and tribulations of horse race.

Tony Kynaston: 52:20 

Absolutely, yes. We have most of our horses with David Hayes or at least Ben and Tom David now. 

Cameron Williams: 52:27 


Tony Kynaston: 52:28 

But I did catch a sit next to Chris Waller on the flight back from Melbourne after stake stay last year so we had a good chat about things.

Cameron Williams: 52:33 


Tony Kynaston: 52:34 

And we might hook up at some stage.

Cameron Williams: 52:36 

He’s a wonderful man.

Tony Kynaston: 52:38 

Very knowledgeable.

Cameron Williams: 52:39 

Yep, very good.

Tony Kynaston: 52:40 

Yes, cool.

Cameron Reilly: 52:41 

All right well it’s great to talk to you.

Cameron Williams: 52:43 

Yes, thank you. Most of that out Cameron?

Cameron Reilly: 52:48 

No, that was all good stuff man. Thank you so much for taking time out of your studio day you got to go back now?

Cameron Williams: 52:52 

Yes, yes. Put the tie back on and six o’clock news beckons.

Both Cameron Reilly & Tony Kynaston: 52:58 

All right thanks.

Tony Kynaston: 52:59 

Thanks for giving us some time that was a great story.

Cameron Williams: 53:01 

Oh, thank you very much. You’ve got a true believer here Cameron. You’re going tell me where I rank in the first adapters to QAV.

Cameron Reilly: 53:12 

I looked it up you’re uh roughly number sixty.

Cameron Williams: 53:15 

Okay, not bad, not bad, First century in there.

Cameron Reilly: 53:18 

Yes, you should have some caps made up for the first century.

Tony Kynaston: 53:21 

Okay I’ll get that organized before our next Sydney event. Thanks mate.

Cameron Williams: 53:26 

All right see you later guys, bye.

Tony Kynaston: 53:28 

Okay bye.

Cameron Reilly: 53:28