Alan Kohler Returns: Bubbles, Housing, and Why ETFs Won’t Save You — QAV AU #933

QAV AU 933

[00:00:00]

Cameron: Wel­come to QAV episode 933. This is the 18th of August 2026. How are you, TK?

Tony Kynas­ton: Very well. Thank you, Cam. How are you?

Cameron: Good. By the way, I, I, I like the fact that when we, um, had Alex Pass­more on from NMG last week, he referred to you as TK

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Cameron: that.

Tony Kynas­ton: Might be a lis­ten­er. Yeah.

Cameron: I’m sure he is now.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah

Cameron: for com­ing on. And we have anoth­er great guest, the ulti­mate guest com­ing on, uh, today, uh, which we just record­ed, pre-record­ed with, uh, the man him­self who needs no intro­duc­tion, War­ren Buf­fett.

No, Alan Kohler, the oth­er man him­self. Um, return– Alan Kohler return­ing to the show. The last time he was on the show was May 2019, pre-COVID. Um, I did hope to ask him about the stocks that he said that he liked back then, which were Domi­com, [00:01:00] Push­pay, PPH, and Xero, XRO. Um, I think he said he was invest­ed in Domi­com and Push­pay.

I think they’ve both delist­ed. And, uh, Xero, I looked at, was about 60 bucks when we talked about it in May 2019. They were tak­ing over the world. Sev­en years lat­er, they’re about 80 bucks. they haven’t gone back­wards, but not exact­ly the kind of per­for­mance we would have. They, they’ve been h- they have been high­er than that.

They

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. To be, to be fair, Alan may have sold them along the way too.

Cameron: Myer

Tony Kynas­ton: We did­n’t get a chance to dis­cuss it. He was on the, on a, a strict timetable with us, was­n’t he?

Cameron: He was. He has bet­ter things to

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm

Cameron: an impor­tant man. Any­way, before we get into that, uh, cou­ple of things, um, I will cov­er. Let’s have a look at our port­fo­lios. How are they doing today? Uh, the mod­el [00:02:00] port­fo­lio, for­mer­ly known as the dum­my port­fo­lio, since incep­tion’s per annum ver­sus the SPDR 200 up 8.2, so almost exact­ly dou­ble mar­ket. The light port­fo­lio since Feb­ru­ary– Oh, that one, by the way, incep­tion is Sep­tem­ber 2019 for new lis­ten­ers, so sev­en years almost exact­ly. The light port­fo­lio incep­tion date Feb­ru­ary 2022, uh, AKA the worst pos­si­ble time to have start­ed a port­fo­lio in the last five years. It was, like, uh, the week of the Ukraine inva­sion. It is up, uh, 20.3% per annum ver­sus the SPDR 200 up 10.7% per annum. Again, almost exact­ly dou­ble mar­ket. We should just call this pod­cast

Tony Kynas­ton: Dou­ble Mar­ket, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah,

Tony Kynas­ton: I named a race­horse Dou­ble Mar­ket, and it did well, won a group, uh, group two race. So yeah. And it’s, it, the name’s free now ’cause I [00:03:00] sold it recent­ly. Sold the race­horse I mean. Yeah

Cameron: What has­n’t done well this week is Aur­i­zon. I had to sell Aur­i­zon out of a port­fo­lio, out of my super, I think it was yes­ter­day. Became a three-point sell for us. Report­ed a 24% jump in prof­it yes­ter­day morn­ing and the stock fell 9.9%. Went from $4.16 down to $3.75. Uh, the analy­sis that, uh, var­i­ous AIs did for me, uh, was that it was­n’t so much this year’s prof­it that was the prob­lem, it was their guide for next

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah

Cameron: earn­ings, and, uh, prob­lem with their coal con­tracts.

So Aur­i­zon’s coal cus­tomers com­mit to a set num­ber of tons each year and pay for them whether the coal actu­al­ly moves or not, sounds good, it’s like a guar­an­teed income. But the [00:04:00] con­tracts they have for next year, that falls by 20 mil­lion tons from 231 mil­lion to 211 mil­lion. So yeah, there’s a num­ber of oth­er things as well, but that was the big thing.

So yeah, they fell and I had to sell them. So if any­one did­n’t see my post on that yes­ter­day and you’ve got, uh, Aur­i­zon in a port­fo­lio, AZJ, you might want to, uh, have a look at that. It’s now breached a three-point sell line. Um, the only oth­er thing I’ve got is a ques­tion from Philip. Tony, do you wan­na jump into that?

Philip said,

Tony Kynas­ton: Yes

Cameron: been lots of com­men­tary around cap­i­tal gains tax changes and down­side of direct share invest­ing with these new changes. Could Tony com­ment on how this might affect QAV invest­ing going for­ward?”

Tony Kynas­ton: Sure. Uh, thanks for the ques­tion, Philip. It’s I’ll, I’ll tell you what I know and what my com­ments are. Um, I, [00:05:00] I do want to pref­ace it with I think, I’m not sure if the leg­is­la­tion has been announced yet, um, or if it has, whether there’s been enough time for tax advi­sors, et cetera, to have a look at it. But I think some of the nuances might come out in the next six to 12 months, um, as they, as it gets pored over.

But that aside, uh, the ques­tion around CGT comes down to changes which hap­pen in July of 2027, so it’s next year’s, um, tax return, and, and basi­cal­ly it’s cap­i­tal gains after that date, so it’s, um, it’s not ret­ro­spec­tive. Uh, but the tax changes on cap­i­tal gains tax from being half your top mar­gin­al rate, um, if you hold the asset for more than a year, uh, to being, um, indexed, indexed or the cost base being indexed by infla­tion.

Uh, and so that means if you hold onto the asset long enough, it should, you know, approx­i­mate a 50% [00:06:00] dis­count, and there’ll be cas­es where it’s more or less. But if you’re turn­ing over things quick­ly, then, uh, it, it’s, uh, more, more of a bur­den in, from a tax point of view under the new regime, which is actu­al­ly the old regime than under the 50% dis­count rules.

Uh, and there’s also anoth­er, um, wrin­kle in the leg­is­la­tion which says that regard­less of how you account for things, it’s a min­i­mum 30% cap­i­tal gains tax, so just be aware of that as well. Um, and the kind of per­verse thing about that is that affects peo­ple on low tax brack­ets more than it affects peo­ple on high tax brack­ets because, um, if, if you’re lis­ten­ing to this and you’re on a top mar­gin­al rate of 47 and a half per­cent, you’re already above 30% any­way.

But if you’re some­one who’s not pay­ing much tax, then you’ll pay, as a per­cent­age, more tax on cap­i­tal gains than you do from your income, so that’s kind of strange, I think. But any­way, um, and I should also say assets inside super are unchanged, so they still have the cur­rent CGT, uh, regime, uh, [00:07:00] which remains in place next year.

Uh, the oth­er thing I should say is that, um, the tax off­sets still work the same way as they do now. So if you have a cap­i­tal loss, you can, uh, uh, off­set that against the cap­i­tal gain. And when I say cap­i­tal loss, I mean crys­tal­lized cap­i­tal loss. And I know that every year in June or May, I do remind peo­ple that they should check their port­fo­lios, and if they expect to have a cap­i­tal gain in their tax returns, they might want to look at, uh, whether they’re car­ry­ing any cap­i­tal loss­es that they could sell and off­set.

Uh, I think it prob­a­bly makes it even more impor­tant to do that going for­ward after July when these new changes come in. Uh, but any­way, um, it’s. You can still do that off­set­ting process. Uh, there’s a, there’s a. I think prob­a­bly the area that’s attract­ed the most com­men­tary, um, cer­tain­ly in the social media world, and you’ve got to be care­ful of lis­ten­ing to a lot of peo­ple on the social media world, except for us, uh, and Alan Kohler, who we’ve- we, we have on lat­er.

But, [00:08:00] um, there’s a, uh, an issue around what’s called a nom­i­nal loss ver­sus a real loss. And I think, you know, it is a real thing, but in some ways it’s a bit of a fur­phy. So, uh, what, what this means in a nut­shell is that. I’ll g- and I’ll give an exam­ple as a way of, um, high­light­ing the, the issue. If I buy a share for $10,000, and in five years’ time I sell it for $5,000, I gen­er­ate a $5,000 loss, and that can be off­set against cap­i­tal gains or car­ried for­ward to off­set cap­i­tal gains tax in future years.

How­ev­er, in real terms, the pur­chase price in five years should have been 10,000 plus infla­tion and, you know, say if that ran around 3% per annum, an infla­tion-adjust­ed cost base is gonna be some­thing between 11 and $12,000. So the real tax loss after infla­tion is actu­al­ly more like $6,500 and not the $5,000, um, nom­i­nal­ly.

So, uh, when you car­ry for­ward [00:09:00] loss­es or even, um, take loss­es into account after 2027, you’re using the face val­ue of the loss, so you’re not get­ting the ben­e­fit of deduct­ing the infla­tion from the cap­i­tal gain. How­ev­er, you do deduct the infla­tion from the cap­i­tal gain when you’re work­ing out the cap­i­tal gain.

So it’s kind of all in there. And I, I should also say that the way that I’ve just described is the way that loss­es are used now. So there’s no change to the account­ing of loss­es, um, now and how they can be off­set. Uh, and so some com­men­ta­tors have said that’s a ter­ri­ble thing. Um, as I said, it’s unchanged, and yes, you would get a big­ger deduc­tion if you allowed for infla­tion on the base of your loss.

Um, you’re not allowed to, so yes, the– you know, you may be– you, you, you will suf­fer, um, degra­da­tion in the– if the loss­es are car­ried for­ward for a long time. So, you know, if you, if you, for exam­ple, hold two shares and, and one of them you sell now for a $5,000 loss and you don’t sell the oth­er one for twen­ty years, then that [00:10:00] $5,000 loss off­set is gonna be vir­tu­al­ly worth­less because of infla­tion over that time.

But I, I, I would also hope that $5,000 is nei­ther here nor there when you come to doing your tax return in twen­ty years’ time if you’ve invest­ed wise­ly. So I, I don’t see it as being a big thing, but it is a thing to be aware of. And con­se­quent­ly though, what peo­ple have said is maybe you’re bet­ter off own­ing an ETF than direct, uh, invest­ing in shares.

I don’t believe so. Um, the, the argu­ment that’s put for­ward is that ETFs can pool gains and loss­es and, uh, there­fore you’re not as, you’re not as exposed to indi­vid­ual share move­ments. Um, but I should say that if there is a, a net CGT event in an ETF, they do pass it through to you while you hold the ETF.

So, um, you can get a sur­prise at tax time when a state­ment comes out say­ing the ETF had a net pos­i­tive cap­i­tal, uh, gain in the year. Um, so say for exam­ple, it might occur this year because, uh, Com­mon­wealth Bank was up very high and then ETFs that tracked that [00:11:00] index start­ed sell­ing it, and so they would have a cap­i­tal gain, um, on their sale, uh, crys­tal­lized, and if they did­n’t have enough cap­i­tal loss­es, then you may get a por­tion of that CGT passed through to you as a, an ETF share­hold­er or an ETF unit hold­er.

Um, the thing is though, that, that may or may not hap­pen. It’s usu­al­ly a, a small part of, um, of cap­i­tal gains tax from the indi­vid­u­al’s point of view. The big­ger cap­i­tal gains tax event is going to be when you come to sell the ETF, hope­ful­ly. You’ve made a cap­i­tal gain over a long peri­od of time, you index it, you pay your tax.

A lot of peo­ple who are invest­ing pas­sive­ly in index­es don’t hold a lot of, um, ETFs. They might hold a cou­ple or, um, half a dozen or what­ev­er. So you– if you crys­tal­lize one, um, you may not have crys­tal­liza­tion of a loss-mak­ing ETF to off­set against the cap­i­tal gain of the ETF you just sold. So it’s a bit of swings and round­abouts.

Um, you’ll, you’ll cer­tain­ly have a CGT [00:12:00] event when you sell your hold­ing in an ETF, and you may not have a cor­re­spond­ing asset that you’ve sold at a loss to be able to deflect the tax, um, that you’re pay­ing for CGT on that. So that’s more like­ly to hap­pen in a port­fo­lio of indi­vid­u­al­ly held shares. So I am call­ing BS on the ETFs are bet­ter than shares from a CGT per­spec­tive, but please do your own research and get per­son­al advice.

It’s a tax mat­ter and it’s, it’s, it– you know, it’s going to come down to your indi­vid­ual cir­cum­stances, both from whether you’re hold­ing assets in your own name, a com­pa­ny name, a trust, or in super, um, and when you sell them and all of those kinds of things. So it’s, it’s worth look­ing into, but do it your­self or get advice

Cameron: And some­what irrel­e­vant to QAV, uh, mem­bers because we don’t have loss­es, we only have wins

Tony Kynas­ton: Well, well, we just had a loss on Aur­i­zon, as you said. So, um,

Cameron: No, I made a prof­it

Tony Kynas­ton: oh, you’re mate’s the made a prof­it. Well done. Okay.

Cameron: yeah,

Tony Kynas­ton: I know–

Cameron: its [00:13:00] sell line. I did­n’t say I made a loss

Tony Kynas­ton: Ah, okay. Well done.

Cameron: Hmm

Tony Kynas­ton: yeah, and, and, um, you know, I, I do make loss­es from time to time, and I do use them to off­set cap­i­tal gains, so it’s a part of, um, share invest­ing, I think

Cameron: Yeah, you’re doing it wrong, Tony. I’ve, I’ve nev­er sold a share at a loss in all the time we’ve been doing this.

Tony Kynas­ton: Wow

Cameron: F- let’s leave out 2022 to 2024 any­way. Kid­ding. We make things go wrong.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah

Cameron: Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for that ques­tion, Philip. Thank you for that answer, Tony. You got any­thing else?

Tony Kynas­ton: No, that’s all I’ve got. Thanks. It is com­pa­ny report­ing sea­son, so stay awake out there and you may, uh, trip some sell lines or buy lines as, um, as we said before

Cameron: The only oth­er buy that I had on the buy list this week was PLT Group, which also has a March report­ing peri­od

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Cameron: So did, uh, [00:14:00] was able to sug­gest that one to our Lite mem­bers but that was it. It was NMG again and, uh, PLT were the only two that were action­able this week. Uh, but we’re past the halfway mark, so we should start to see a bunch of them hit in the next week or two.

Tony Kynas­ton: Cor­rect. Yep

Cameron: Yes, here he is, the man him­self.

Tony, I’ll let you kick it off

Tony Kynas­ton: Thank you. Alan, it’s my absolute plea­sure to have you back on QAV. Thank you very much for, for com­ing on. I think, I think we last chat­ted some six years ago before COVID.

Alan: crikey.

Tony Kynas­ton: I think it was before COVID. And, and I have to say, you were our kick­off inter­view, I think, and, and cer­tain­ly helped us get start­ed in, uh, in our life as pod­cast­ers and, uh, share mar­ket, uh, prog­nos­ti­ca­tors, and watch­ers, and investors

Alan: Well, here you are 60 years lat­er still going. That’s

Tony Kynas­ton: We are and that’s, that’s say­ing some­thing, isn’t it?

Alan: Well, [00:15:00] that’s right. Uh, abs- absolute­ly

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. Well, uh, well, you know, while we’ve got you here, uh, y- you do a pod­cast, uh, The Mon­ey Cafe, so we’ll give that one a plug, where you talk about, uh, var­i­ous things. But I thought we’d kick off our chat, uh, uh, to focus on stocks and the stock mar­ket because that’s what this pod­cast is about. And my, my first ques­tion is, do you think that the ASX is in a bub­ble at the moment?

Alan: Well, no, it’s obvi­ous­ly, the ASX is def­i­nite­ly not in a bub­ble. Um, it’s, uh, you know, it’s up, what, 25% in three years. So that’s, um, com­pound annu­al growth of, uh, 7.5% over three years. So, um, that’s kind of nor­mal, I’d say

Tony Kynas­ton: It, yeah, it feels that way to me too. We don’t have much of the AI froth and bub­ble that the US has at the moment. Is, is the US mar­ket in a bub­ble, do you think?

Alan: Well, uh, prob­a­bly. Uh, well, the trou­ble is that– the trou­ble with bub­bles is you don’t know, uh, when they’re gonna stop. Um, [00:16:00] uh, usu­al­ly peo­ple call the bub­ble well before it actu­al­ly peaks, which I think is prob­a­bly what’s like­ly to hap­pen this time, and peo­ple say­ing. been say­ing for a while it’s a bub­ble and it keeps going. Um, mind you, the, the AI stocks, tech stocks have not con­tin­ued to bub­ble this year. There’s been a– There was a burst chip stocks, going through the roof, but I think on the whole, they’re not. And the oth­er thing is that, um, the val­u­a­tions are not exces­sive. I mean, I think, um, they’re nowhere near what they were in the, in the ni- in the 2000, ’90s bub­ble. So prob­a­bly it’s fair to say that if there is a bub­ble, it’s an earn­ings bub­ble, not a share price val­u­a­tion bub­ble

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, I, I think, I think I agree with you there. It’s the, the thing about bub­bles is the last leg is always the sweet­est, isn’t it? Until it crash­es and you, and you give it all back and some. But, um, it, it, in terms of even just sim­ple met­rics like for­ward PE [00:17:00] ratios, it’s, so it does­n’t look like 2007 or it does­n’t look like ’87 or ’99 to me.

Yeah. We, I think we’re both old enough to have been through a few bub­bles, and I, I think it pos­si­bly was in the bub­ble, the US last year when the Mag, or the year before, when the Mag Sev­en was still quite strong, but it’s, uh, it’s qui­etened down a bit over there

Alan: That’s right

Tony Kynas­ton: One of the things that you do a lot of is CEO inter­views, and we, we do them occa­sion­al­ly here. Um, I, I guess I’d like some tips from the mas­ter. We, um, my CEO inter­views tend to go one way or the oth­er. They’re either a soft­ball because we like the stock, or I ask a, um, a per­ti­nent ques­tion and, uh, the inter­view kind of fin­ish­es quick­ly.

So what, uh, what’s your approach?

Alan: Oh, well, my approach is to, in a sense, rep­re­sent investors to, you know, try, try to, try to think about what investors wan­na know about this com­pa­ny. Um, the way I see [00:18:00] CEO inter­views is that they are a sort of an intro­duc­tion of the com­pa­ny. You should nev­er, no one should ever see the inter­view with the CEO as being the kind of the defin­i­tive tale. Um, but it’s an intro­duc­tion, per­haps the begin­ning of research. Um, it would start, it can start you off in terms of, um, rais­ing ques­tions that need to be looked into, um, in more depth. Um, so, uh, yeah, my, my approach to a CEO inter­view is to basi­cal­ly try to get the, try to get an under­stand­ing of, um, what the his­to­ry of the busi­ness is, how it start­ed, what’s the cul­ture of the place, what’s the CEO like, um, and most impor­tant of all, how does the busi­ness make mon­ey? What, what are the, what’s the, what’s the mod­el? Um, and so usu­al­ly CEOs are okay with that stuff.

Tony Kynas­ton: Do, do you find that CEOs tend to be more mar­ket­ing than, uh, than man­agers? That they, they’re [00:19:00] sell­ing a sto­ry?

Alan: Well, that’s their job, so, you know,

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm

Alan: mean, you’ve got­ta, got­ta give them that. That’s th- their job is to mar­ket the com­pa­ny, par­tic­u­lar­ly when they’re talk­ing to jour­nal­ists and pod­cast­ers, um, to ana­lysts. I mean, that’s what they’re doing all the time is, is try­ing to get peo­ple to, uh, get inter­est­ed in their busi­ness. So yeah, I mean, I don’t, I don’t see a prob­lem, uh, with that. Um, uh, I, I do f- I mean, I, I’ve giv­en up inter- inter­view­ing large com­pa­ny CEOs on the whole ’cause I think they, are much more media trained and much more inclined to be mar­keters. So I’m, uh, I like inter­view­ing small com­pa­ny CEOs ’cause they.

It’s not just that they tell the truth, um, but, but there’s more of a sto­ry to tell often, um, and, uh, they’re, they’re just a bit eas­i­er and nicer to inter­view in my view

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, def­i­nite­ly. I, I think I agree with you. And they don’t get the same sort of cov­er­age that the big stocks get any­way, so it’s, uh, it’s good for them. They’re more, more open, I think, to, to come onto a [00:20:00] show and, and talk about.

Alan: it, it’s a bit more use­ful too for

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah

Alan: to, to hear from a small com­pa­ny CEO because they don’t actu­al­ly hear from them usu­al­ly

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. No, that’s right. Um, and y- and, and you’re right about doing fur­ther research, and we, we focus on the fig­ures and what we talk about and teach here. Uh, ’cause often, you know, if you wan­na buy a sto­ry, go to Dim­mick­’s. Um, but, but as you say, it’s, it’s. If we can shed some light on the num­bers through the inter­view, it’s not a bad thing to do.

Alan: Yeah, that’s right

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. If, uh. One of the most com­mon ques­tions that I get asked, uh, some­times on the show, some­times when I’m, you know, at din­ners or what­ev­er, is, uh, what, what advice do, should I give to some­one start­ing off in the share mar­ket? So what advice would you give, and what’s, what’s the most com­mon sort of mis­take that you see, um, retail investors mak­ing in the share mar­ket?

Alan: I think the most com­mon one is prob­a­bly just fol­low­ing the herd and, you know, jump­ing aboard some, you know, some hot stock, uh, that they’re hear­ing about. I, I think, um, you know, you, uh, it’s, uh, you’re much bet­ter off [00:21:00] tr- uh, try­ing to invest in some­thing you know a bit about, uh, either because you’ve researched it or because you shop in the, in that shop. You know you like the busi­ness, you know a lit­tle bit about it. I think, um, peo­ple, par­tic­u­lar­ly peo­ple who are start­ing out, I mean, should use invest­ing as an exten­sion of their life, I think, if they can, um, to, to turn, to make the invest­ing part of the life, part of your life.

Um, and so, you know, uh, uh, I can’t think of an exact exam­ple, but look, if you, if, um, as, uh, as I do, you like shop­ping in or you go to JB Hi-Fi a bit, maybe you’d, um, you’d want to invest in that com­pa­ny, although it’s not

Tony Kynas­ton: Stop today maybe.

Alan: day

Tony Kynas­ton: Well, maybe we should. The stock price is down.

Alan: That’s right.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah

Alan: Well, you know, that’s right. And, and so the s- the price is down a fair bit, um, this week.

Um, maybe it’s a good time to buy it. look, [00:22:00] I mean, i- if you, if you par­tic­u­lar­ly like Coles ver­sus Wool­worths, then buy that stock, not, rather than Wool­worths. I mean, I, I just kind of. I mean, these are all retail­ers, so, uh, uh, we tend to have more to do with retail­ers in our lives, I guess. Um, but maybe there’s oth­er com­pa­nies that you know a bit about or, you know, maybe you’re a builder and you know a bit about, um, uh, James Hardie or some­thing and, you know, you like their prod­uct.

So look, I, I just think if pos­si­ble, and it’s not always pos­si­ble, but if pos­si­ble, make, uh, invest­ing an, an exten­sion of your life

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, that’s, I mean, that’s the Peter Lynch the­o­ry, isn’t it? The what, uh, One Up On Wall Street, uh, where if you, if you go out and buy an iPhone and you haven’t bought a mobile phone before, it’s, you might wan­na go and buy the stock as well. Yeah. One of the inter­est­ing things I’ve, I’ve found is, um, I’ve been par­ty to some invest­ment com­mit­tees at var­i­ous places, and it’s, it’s, they’re often very dry things.

You know, let’s dis­cuss this com­pa­ny and its lat­est results. Mm. But [00:23:00] occa­sion­al­ly some­thing will come up where peo­ple around the room will get excit­ed. So, um, I mean, not wish­ing to use an exam­ple as a rec­om­men­da­tion, but like, uh, you know, they’ll talk about, say, Life360, and then they’ll all start say­ing, “Oh, yes, we use that,” and, you know, “My kids have it, and we track them through the use of that app.”

And so they start to get excit­ed, and that’s, um, that’s not nec­es­sar­i­ly a rea­son to invest in that com­pa­ny, but it’s an inter­est­ing take on what you’re say­ing, which is that if there’s a bit of excite­ment there, it’s worth look­ing into.

Alan: Well, I think if you’re using Life360 and you like it, then that’s a start at least. I mean, y‑y-y- I don’t think it means you should sud­den­ly go out and buy it, buy the stock, but, you know, it, it’d be a good, good place to start and think about and have a look into it and then do some work on it. Um, uh, that’s cer­tain­ly the case.

I mean, and, and anoth­er thought is that, you know, if you’re using AI and you, you know, you’re inter­est­ed in, um, maybe you should have a look at cop­per because, um, you know, cop­per [00:24:00] is, uh, what’s been, you know, what’s going up. Uh, the cop­per price is at, um, all-time highs, I think, and, um, uh, BHP’s just announced a huge prof­it and it’s now most­ly a cop­per com­pa­ny. maybe, maybe that’s some­thing you want to think about

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, it’s an inter­est­ing point, isn’t it? When­ev­er there’s a boom on, you buy the picks and shov­els rather than the gold min­er.

Alan: Oh, well that’s true

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. Yeah. You, you said before, don’t fol­low the crowd, and I think your point was, don’t take tips from taxi dri­vers, which is often the sign of a boom. But, um, are, are peo­ple fol­low­ing the crowd now when they get into ETFs and pas­sive invest­ing?

Is there. How, how would you con­trast today’s mar­ket with, say, the mar­ket of 2006, which did­n’t have those things as much any­way?

Alan: a lot more, a lot more ETFs now. And I think, uh, look, uh, um, I both under­stand why peo­ple like ETFs and go into them because it gives you diver­si­fi­ca­tion, um, you know, sim­ply and eas­i­ly and cheap­ly. but, [00:25:00] but on the oth­er hand, I, I don’t think ETFs, pre­dom­i­nat­ing is a good thing for the, a good thing for any­one. Um,

Tony Kynas­ton: that, Alan?

Alan: well, because it, it tends to mean that the mar­ket tends to, sort of feeds on itself. Um, stocks go up sim­ply because they’re big rather than because they’re good. Um, so, you know, I, I, I’m, I, I guess I’m a lit­tle bit con­cerned about that. I mean, CBA has had a huge run, um, Com­mon­wealth Bank because, sim­ply because it’s big, but on the oth­er hand, it’s also good.

So there you go. BHP

Tony Kynas­ton: But, and it works in reverse too. When, and when the down­turn does come, those stocks will fall pret­ty hard,

Alan: That’s right

Tony Kynas­ton: they’re big parts of the ETFs which are forced to sell. Yeah. Um, no, it’s, it’s, it’s very inter­est­ing. Um, when I talk about this with peo­ple and I say that I, I think ETFs, and I’m not just talk­ing about ETFs, it could be list­ed invest­ment com­pa­nies or what­ev­er, but peo­ple who are fol­low­ing an index, um, [00:26:00] pas­sive­ly, uh, will, will ampli­fy the mar­ket up and ampli­fy the mar­ket down.

They always throw back at me, “Yes, but, um, but over the long term, indi­vid­ual stock pick­ers don’t beat the mar­ket.” What, what’s your response to that?

Alan: Look, I think that’s, is that, I think it’s, uh, sta­tis­ti­cal­ly cor­rect, um, uh, over all of, uh, over all stock, stock pick­ers. I think that’s right. Um, but look, I, I do think, well, clear­ly the only way to beat the mar­ket is to pick stocks and not to do the, not to do an ETF of the mar­ket because oth­er­wise, you know, if you do an ETF of the mar­ket, that’s what you get. So you don’t meet the, beat the mar­ket. So the only way to beat the mar­ket is by pick­ing stocks. And clear­ly there are a num­ber of, um, um, funds, stock pick­ing funds that do real­ly well. Um, you know, they say and every­one says past per­for­mance is no guide to future per­for­mance, which is true. Um, [00:27:00] but the thing is, it’s all you’ve got.

So if, if, if, if there’s a fund that’s con­sis­tent­ly beat the mar­ket over the past five or 10 years, then there’s a fair chance that it’s gonna con­tin­ue to do that, I think, ’cause they know what they’re doing

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, it’s, it’s very much an evo­lu­tion­ary type envi­ron­ment, isn’t it? If you’re not out­per­form­ing the mar­ket, you’re gonna have funds out­flows, and you’re not gonna be around in five years’ time. So, you know, you’re not gonna have a long-term record to, to boast about. Yeah.

Alan: Yeah, exact­ly

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with you. And, and, you know, in fact, it’s always been a bit puz­zling to me.

I, I think one of the rea­sons why fund man­agers don’t beat the mar­ket is because they put them­selves in a box, and they’re either growth or they’re val­ue or they’re this or that. Um, and even­tu­al­ly that, that sort of style goes out of favor. Where­as if you’re an indi­vid­ual retail investor, you can change styles as you need to or change sec­tors or what­ev­er, or go to cash, I guess, if you need to as well. Yeah, I think that’s a big thing.

Um, what about, [00:28:00] uh, things like, uh, super funds and the, and the part they play in the mar­ket? The fact that we, uh, as, as employ­ees will have large expo­sures to the US mar­ket. Um, also too, the super funds h- are now test­ed against the bench­mark. Is that caus­ing them to be pas­sive investors? Is there a, is there, is there a need for s- a super fund, I guess, of some size to be more like a, an active man­ag­er?

Alan: Well, I mean, su- super funds are, um, a bit dif­fer­ent in the sense that they are there for the long term. Well, they should be there for the long term. So they’re, they’re, they’re sav­ing for your retire­ment. Um, and the process of, of doing that is a 40-year, um, a 40-year invest­ment. Um, the trou­ble is that they’re kind of judged, quar­ter­ly or half-year­ly or year­ly or what­ev­er.

I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re judged or they, they have to report their per­for­mance pret­ty often. you [00:29:00] get. And every­one has Super Choice now so that you can switch funds, which is fine. That’s the way it ought to be, of course. But the trou­ble is that, um, you know, short-term per­for­mance is not real­ly what these things ought to be about. Um, I, I don’t real­ly know what the answer to that is. I mean, I, I think that, um, uh, super funds tend to, clus­ter around the bench­marks because, you know, they, they don’t want to be too far away. Um, uh, but on the oth­er hand, you know, the, they, they are, what they’re try­ing to do is achieve, uh, diverse, uh, per­for­mance, beat the, beat the bench­marks, their own bench­marks, and, and pro­vide a decent return o- over the long term, um, with diver­si­fi­ca­tion.

So they, they tend to have a, a broad range of, uh, invest­ments. And I. Look, um, I mean, a lot of them, a lot of their invest­ments are into sort of [00:30:00] infra­struc­ture, unlist­ed, um, pri­vate equi­ty, all that sort of thing. And, um, some of them more than oth­ers in those unlist­ed things. Um, and they’re the sort of things that, you know, us as small investors can’t real­ly do. Um, and so they, they give you a bit of extra expo­sure to some asset class­es that are not oth­er­wise avail­able. And I think that’s, that’s a good thing, you know. So I mean, I’m, I’m think­ing about actu­al­ly putting some of my mon­ey in a super fund. I’m, I’m, I haven’t done it yet, but I’m think­ing about that

Tony Kynas­ton: You don’t have mon­ey in a super fund. That’s inter­est­ing

Alan: Well, I’ve got, I’ve got my own self-man­aged super fund, um, but I haven’t got mon­ey in a, um, in a large indus­try fund, for

Tony Kynas­ton: Right. Okay

Alan: but I’m think­ing that maybe I should

Tony Kynas­ton: Right. Yeah, it’s in-inter­est­ing, isn’t it? I, I think, um, you, you com­ment about the 40-year n- exis­tence of super. It’s, it’s kind of com­ing to a, a, a real lit­mus test now, isn’t it? Because I, I, [00:31:00] I’m not see­ing the, uh, pen­sion or the amount of the bud­get the fed­er­al gov­ern­ment spends on pen­sions going down, and yet the, the pe- that we should be get­ting to the retire­ment stage for the first peo­ple who were going into super 40 years ago.

Um, maybe you need to have 80 years of super fund exis­tence before you can say on aver­age peo­ple are at, who are retir­ing have been in the sys­tem the whole time. But it’s cer­tain­ly at this stage, and it was set up to, to cap the gov­ern­men­t’s wel­fare spend on pen­sion. That’s cer­tain­ly not hap­pen­ing yet, so does that mean it’s b- needs to be looked at?

Alan: to, I think it’s begin­ning to cap it because, you know, uh, peo­ple are sort of, a lot of, a lot more peo­ple are, um, you know, going above the, the, um, the assets and income tests for the pen­sion. So the go- the gov­ern­men­t’s nev­er going to sort of announce a reduc­tion in the pen­sion or some­thing in re- in response to super.

But what should hap­pen is that over time, uh, per­haps over a long time, the, um, the amount being spent on the pen­sion declines as peo­ple kind of go above the, [00:32:00] um, uh, go above the income and assets test, test

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, I’d like to have a long-term bet on that, Alan. I think, um,

Alan: No, maybe you’re right.

Tony Kynas­ton: p- pen­sion­er as a vot­er is not gonna vote for a reduc­tion in the pen­sion. They want their cake and eat it too, I think. They want both. Um

Alan: Yeah, but you can’t have both. Come on

Tony Kynas­ton: Uh, the oth­er thing I think that’s inter­est­ing about super, which I’ll, I’ll toss into the con­ver­sa­tion, is I won­der whether, uh, uh, some­day some­one will wake up and say, “Gee, we real­ly should have had a sov­er­eign wealth fund and had all that mon­ey in one place man­aged by.” Much like the, uh, Future Fund’s doing now, man­aged by a cen­tral team of pro­fes­sion­als.

And then the gov­ern­ment has a say on where the, the mon­ey is used, whether it’s in for infra­struc­ture or what­ev­er in Aus­tralia or, or it’s left alone to invest wher­ev­er it sees fit

Alan: Yeah. Well, the, um, that’s not gonna hap­pen. The train, that train has left the sta­tion. But, um, the super fund– The Future Fund is not a bad sov­er­eign wealth fund. They do okay. Um, [00:33:00] I mean, I, I think there is a case, this is pos­si­bly a big, big­ger sub­ject than we’ve got time for, but, uh, but I do think there’s a case for that the­o­ret­i­cal­ly, because the prob­lem with the super sys­tem as it cur­rent­ly sits is that we’re all in dif­fer­ent funds we there­fore end up with dif­fer­ent retire­ment out­comes. And the super choice is mean­ing­less because what you’re choos­ing, what you’re bas­ing a choice on is the future returns of the fund, which you don’t know what they are, You’ve got no idea. um, you can’t pos­si­bly make a choice, an informed choice about the future because it has­n’t hap­pened yet. I mean, y‑you can make a choice on past returns, but as they say, the past returns are no guide to the future returns. So, uh, I mean, uh, so you, you know, you end up with peo­ple with all sorts of dif­fer­ent out­comes in retire­ment, has noth­ing. Usu­al­ly from no choice of their own. They just get, they just get bunged into a fund, accord­ing [00:34:00] to the indus­try they work in.

If you’re, if you’re, um, a check­out per­son at Coles, you’re in the Rest fund. you’re, uh, a nurse, you’ll be in, uh, HESTA. You know? And if you, if you’re a wait­er, you’ll end, you’ll end up in Host­plus. And, you know, there’s maybe a 1% or 2% dif­fer­ence per annum in return of those funds. You’ll end up with $500,000 less in, in retire­ment than, than, than your neigh­bor, and you had noth­ing.

You, there’s no say in it. So I, I think those dif­fer­ences are a prob­lem. But any­way, there’s noth­ing that can be done about it.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, I mean, it, it, it– we often go in cycles, and I think, you know, when I first joined the work­force, super funds were pen­sion funds, and they were defined ben­e­fit. So you’re guar­an­teed a mul­ti­ple of your last salary. And, um, and, you know, for peo­ple who aren’t in work and they’re rely­ing on the gov­ern­ment to do that, that’s a pen­sion.

You know, it’s, it’s al– as I said, it’s almost gonna get to the stage where [00:35:00] if super does­n’t work because enough peo­ple have retired and been under­fund­ed, then it’s gonna go back to, we’ll con­trol it as a cen­tral gov­ern­ment, as a fed­er­al gov­ern­ment, and we’ll give you a defined pen­sion, which is how it was.

Any­way, um, mov­ing on. We are in the mid­dle of report­ing sea­son, which is an impor­tant time for us as, uh, share mar­ket investors. And we’ve actu­al­ly, um, stopped buy­ing shares in the month of report­ing sea­son because in the last year or so in par­tic­u­lar, it’s become very, very wild in its fluc­tu­a­tions on, on report­ing day.

And we spoke about a cou­ple of s‑stocks that have moved dra­mat­i­cal­ly after they, their reports, BHP and JB Hi-Fi, to, to name a few. It used to be the case that con­tin­u­ous dis­clo­sure would force com­pa­nies in con­fes­sion sea­son to say, “Hey, the mar­ket is guid­ing wrong. We believe that you think we’re gonna make X, but we’re gonna make Y.”

That’s– I can’t think of [00:36:00] a, of any­one in con­fes­sion sea­son this year who’ve come out and said some­thing like that. They, they prob­a­bly have been exam­ples, but, uh, I mean, I don’t think JB Hi-Fi did, I don’t think BHP did. Um, so what’s going on, Alan? Has, has things changed?

Alan: I don’t know, um, to be hon­est. I mean, I, I, I agree with you. I think that’s, there is, uh, a bit less, uh, guid­ance this year, but I, to be hon­est, I have no idea why. I’m sor­ry

Tony Kynas­ton: Okay. Well, I mean, I guess I’m beg­ging the ques­tion, is the reg­u­la­tor going to act on this? Because, you know, how can you have a con­tin­u­ous dis­clo­sure regime reg­u­lat­ed by ASIC and then com­pa­nies com­ing out on the day of, uh, their reports, uh, and announc­ing some­thing which has com­plete­ly blind­sided the mar­ket?

Alan: Yes, I, I agree. I mean, I, I’m not sure whether guid­ance is, um, man­dat­ed by the law. Um, I s- I, I sup­pose there’s a mat­ter of inter­pre­ta­tion whether, whether con­tin­u­ous dis­clo­sure involves some guid­ance [00:37:00] or just telling you when you know what the answer is, you know, when you know what your results are, which is on report­ing day. So look, I d- um, I, I think you’re right that, I mean, it, it ought to be that, the mar­ket is not blind­sided. Um, uh, occa­sion­al­ly com­pa­nies have been found to be on the wrong side of the law with that. But, um, yeah, I, just don’t know why, why that’s hap­pen­ing.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, I think one of– I mean, I think one of the rea­sons is com­pa­nies are, are now sub­ject to, uh, very, very quick share trad­ing by, um, quant-based funds. And, you know, you hear sto­ries of, uh, of AI lis­ten­ing into announce­ments and using the lan­guage to base a deci­sion on whether to buy or sell the stock. Um, so I, I, I won­der if CEOs are becom­ing a lit­tle bit more con­ser­v­a­tive in what they say pub­licly lead­ing into, uh, com­pa­ny report­ing sea­sons

Alan: Yeah, I think they might be right

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. One of [00:38:00] the things that you do a lot of, uh, talk­ing about on, on, um, the var­i­ous plat­forms, and I, I do, I think, lis­ten to most of them, is the macro envi­ron­ment. What’s going on in the econ­o­my, what’s going on inter­na­tion­al­ly, what’s hap­pen­ing with rates and bonds, and all those kinds of things. Do, do you think know­ing about all, all of that in detail makes you a bet­ter stock investor?

Alan: Well, I think there are four things that deter­mine a share price. One is obvi­ous­ly the com­pa­ny’s earn­ings. The oth­er is the val­u­a­tion of those earn­ings. Um, that’s relat­ed to the third thing, which is sen­ti­ment, which is a lit­tle dif­fer­ent because it’s, sen­ti­ment is to do with the whole mar­ket on the whole.

Val­u­a­tion is to do with that par­tic­u­lar stock. The fourth thing is macro. I mean, um, every com­pa­ny oper­ates in a macro envi­ron­ment. They’re all oper­at­ing in the, in the econ­o­my, and some of them oper­ate in the domes­tic econ­o­my, some of them oper­ate in the glob­al econ­o­my. Um, so it seems to me, in order to make an invest­ment in a [00:39:00] com­pa­ny, you real­ly need to have a sense, some sort of under­stand­ing of all those four things, includ­ing macro. Um, and, uh, I’m not a stock ana­lyst. I’m basi­cal­ly my, my exper­tise such as, such as it is, is to do with the macro envi­ron­ment, and that’s what I report on. When I start­ed Eure­ka Report, thought there was a gap in the mar­ket for indi­vid­ual investors to get some sort of macro guid­ance, and that’s what I tried to achieve.

Tony Kynas­ton: Bet you do. Very, very much so. So, so how would you take macro infor­ma­tion and, and feed it into a, a, an a- an analy­sis of a com­pa­ny? Is it around rates? Is it around the indus­try? What, what goes into that analy­sis?

Alan: Well, about a bit of every­thing. Obvi­ous­ly, it’s to do with inter­est rates is, uh, are a part of it. Um, clear­ly the bond rate, um, helps deter­mine val­u­a­tion. Um, but, but– And inter- you know, short-term inter­est rates tend to have, have, uh, have an impact on con­sumer spend­ing and, uh, [00:40:00] also the, um, uh, the inter­est costs of the par­tic­u­lar com­pa­ny.

So, so those things, inter­est rates are, are clear­ly impor­tant, but also just s- uh, con­sumer sen­ti­ment, all those things. You just– I mean, I, I, I’m not say­ing I under­stand or have a, have some sort of clear guid­ance on how ar-arith­meti­cal­ly you do it, what, how, you know, whether you should– to what extent you should put it into a spread­sheet on a par­tic­u­lar com­pa­ny.

But just think you should have some under­stand­ing the envi­ron­ment, um, that the com­pa­ny is oper­at­ing in and also cons- its cus­tomers are oper­at­ing in

Tony Kynas­ton: Fair, fair enough. Um, one of the macro issues that you, you give a lot of cov­er­age to is hous­ing. Um, what’s, what’s your take on the hous­ing mar­ket fol­low­ing the gov­ern­men­t’s changes to neg­a­tive gear­ing, CGT, and bor­row­ing and SMS­Fs?

Alan: Well, we’re clear­ly in the midst of a cor­rec­tion, uh, in hous­ing. The, the, um, the nation­al price is down about 2%. The [00:41:00] prices nas- the medi­an prices in Syd­ney and Mel­bourne are down about five and a half per­cent. So, um, the cor­rec­tion has begun. There are var­i­ous fore­casts, uh, of what it will, uh, you know, get to.

Some, you know, seem to be clus­ter­ing around 8 to 10%. Uh, I’ve got no idea what will hap­pen. I think there are a cou­ple of things to bear in mind when think­ing about what house prices might do. One is, um, uh, that w- the, it’s not just inter­est rates. I- inter­est rates are the main fac­tor caus­ing house prices to rise and fall. and obvi­ous­ly we’ve had three rate hikes this year. Uh, that’s, that’s the main, the main rea­son house prices are falling. Uh, but the oth­er one is that there’s been a fun­da­men­tal change to the tax deal, uh, for investors with the, uh, change to the cap­i­tal gains tax rules from dis­count back to, um, back to infla­tion adjust­ment, and also neg­a­tive gear­ing rules. Now, um, [00:42:00] think those things are clear­ly already hav­ing a big impact on the sen­ti­ment of hous­ing investors. Um, so we’re see­ing a big decline already since the bud­get in, um, investor loan appli­ca­tions. All the banks, uh, CBA, NAB, and West­pac have all kind of report­ed a big drop-off in investor loan appli­ca­tions.

So they’re kind of. That’s, that’s, uh, well under­way. But the oth­er thing fun­da­men­tal­ly is that hous­ing got too expen­sive. I mean, we’ve been talk­ing about this for years, uh, that hous­ing afford­abil­i­ty in Aus­tralia is a prob­lem. So, um, if peo­ple can’t afford some­thing, they won’t buy it. and I think that there’s a b‑basic, basic prob­lem with house prices got too high. so it’s a bit like the share mar­ket, uh, gets a bit, um, get a bit too high, it comes down. That’s what’s hap­pen­ing

Tony Kynas­ton: You think, uh, an-any of the changes that have come through are actu­al­ly help­ing first home buy­ers? Have you seen some [00:43:00] num­bers around whether they’re, uh, being more suc­cess­ful in their bid­ding?

Alan: Oh, well, um, not real­ly, not specif­i­cal­ly about first-time buy­ers. Al- although I’d say that, you know, um, fall in house prices in Mel­bourne and Syd­ney is very help­ful to first-time buy­ers. The prob­lem, is that the, the most of the falls are at the expen­sive end of the mar­ket. You know, places like Toorak and Mos­man and Point Piper and all that, I mean, they’ve had mas­sive falls. The biggest fall so far is in Curl Curl in, um, Syd­ney, North Curl Curl, down I think 29% or some­thing. So, uh, that’s a big fall. S- uh, and you know, there’s 25, 26% falls in all the expen­sive sub­urbs, but first-time buy­ers aren’t, aren’t in those sub­urbs. And the f- the, the sub­urbs in which first-time buy­ers are oper­at­ing have fall­en a bit, but not [00:44:00] very much.

So that’s, you know, w- that’s, that’s in front of us, one hopes that. I mean, I, I’m, I’m, some­one who’s been, uh, on about hous­ing afford­abil­i­ty for a while now, and I think that it has been a prob­lem, is a prob­lem. House prices do need to, uh, come down and not keep ris­ing as they have been. So, you know, so I’m basi­cal­ly in favor.

I’m a, I’m a, an own­er of a house, and I don’t want it to go down in val­ue too much, but I mean, th- I do rec­og­nize the prob­lem that it caus­es, how the high house prices have caused for Aus­tralian soci­ety and econ­o­my

Tony Kynas­ton: Is there a sec­ondary effect though of, of falling house prices that affects the econ­o­my any­way because, uh, peo­ple feel like they have less equi­ty or less abil­i­ty to bor­row to spend?

Alan: Sure. I mean, yeah. I mean, one, uh, one of the, one of the things that’s been sup­port­ing the econ­o­my has been ris­ing house prices, and as that turns around, um, uh, the econ­o­my, [00:45:00] uh, will be, uh, will be. Will suf­fer, I guess. Um, the econ­o­my might have to stand on its own two feet instead of ris­ing house prices

Tony Kynas­ton: Yes, quite, quite po- quite pos­si­bly. You, you’ve obvi­ous­ly thought a lot about, uh, this issue. What. You know, if, if you could wave a wand and, and change one thing, what would you do, uh, apart from what’s hap­pened, I guess, what would you, you do addi­tion­al­ly to, um, help, help peo­ple into the mar­ket, first-time buy­ers into the mar­ket?

Alan: Well, look, um, uh, um, the, the, the, s- the, um, solu­tion that has been decid­ed upon by Aus­trali­a’s gov­ern­ments is to den­si­fy the sub­urbs, to raise height lim­its around train sta­tions in par­tic­u­lar, and so that, uh, exist­ing infra­struc­ture is used. Um, I, I under­stand why they’re doing that. It’s because they haven’t got any mon­ey.

They can’t afford to build new, lots of new infra­struc­ture, so they just have to do that. Um, they have to use exist­ing trans­port, sew­er­age, water [00:46:00] infra­struc­ture, um, I, I think that’s the sec­ond best solu­tion. Um, I mean, a lot of peo­ple in this a- in this area, includ­ing the gov­ern­ment, dis­agree with me. Fair enough. Um, I, I think that, uh, uh, the roads are already pret­ty crowd­ed. You know, I think that the sub­urbs are all pret­ty, pret­ty dense. So, you know, my. If I had a mag­ic wand, um, I would improve the, uh, trans­port infra­struc­ture for region­al areas around cap­i­tal cities so that instead of tak­ing, um, more than an hour to get from, say, Gee­long or Bendi­go to Mel­bourne, it took half an hour, and peo­ple could viably live there or around there, or on the way to Gee­long, or on the way to Bendi­go, or on the way to Bathurst and New­cas­tle and so on. So I’d improve, I’d, I’d, I’d, um, quick­en [00:47:00] up the trains to go to those places so peo­ple could live there and com­mute. And, um, also they’d spend some more mon­ey than they’re spend­ing on, uh, water and sew­er­age, which both, uh, par­ties, includ­ing the gov­ern­ment, uh, have com­mit­ted some, you know, a few bil­lion dol­lars to that, but it’s nowhere near enough. Um, there needs to be much more, ’cause at the moment, the w- you know, the way it works is some­body devel­op­ing hous­es, uh, in a hous­ing estate in the out­er sub­urbs, they have to pay for, the, the devel­op­er has to pay for the inf- you know, the infra­struc­ture, the roads and the water and the sew­er­age and every­thing, that just goes onto the price, and it makes the whole, uh, it makes the whole project less viable and the hous­es much more expen­sive. And that’s a recent devel­op­ment over the past 20 or 30 years when the cost of infra­struc­ture, um, hous­ing infra­struc­ture was shift­ed from gov­ern­ments to devel­op­ers. And I mean, that’s one of the rea­sons that hous­ing has [00:48:00] become, um, less afford­able is because of the, uh, of that shift. So I mean, I th- I’d like to see that go back to, tax­pay­ers in gen­er­al it’s a part of, you know, it’s a part of soci­ety’s, I think, oblig­a­tion to build, to, enable hous­ing,

Tony Kynas­ton: Look, I agree with you 100%. I, I, I don’t know why the gov­ern­ment isn’t, um. And it does to a cer­tain extent, but why every fed­er­al depart­ment isn’t, uh, locat­ed in the region­al cen­ter. So the tax office is in Wag­ga Wag­ga or the, you know, var­i­ous oth­er, you know, Depart­ment of Health is in Gee­long or what­ev­er,

Alan: Yeah, but the

Tony Kynas­ton: to get

Alan: But yeah, that’s f- that’s fine. I mean, you could do that and, but the trou­ble is you can’t actu­al­ly get to the city. I mean, it’s, like it’s too iso­lat­ing. At the moment, the train to Gee­long, for exam­ple, is a V/Line coun­try train, and it takes too long, and it does­n’t run often enough. I mean, it’s just, um, the whole thing is com­plete­ly, um, uh, um, messed [00:49:00] up, I, I think.

They need to, they need to get their act togeth­er on. The trou­ble is they haven’t got any mon­ey, you know, like the. And you can’t just, you can’t just whack, uh, a fast elec­tric train on the exist­ing tracks. You got­ta write, lay a. I think that’s true. You got­ta lay new tracks. I mean, that’s very expen­sive. And the, um, I mean, the gov­ern­ment, the Vic­to­ri­an gov­ern­ment has decid­ed to spend all this mon­ey on a, on a sub­ur­ban rail loop under­ground, con­nect­ing sub­urbs that don’t need to be con­nect­ed.

So I don’t know.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, look, I,

Alan: prob­lem

Tony Kynas­ton: I, I agree. Um, the, uh, not only like are you right that we should improve the trans­port to places like Gee­long, but we should also be build­ing along the way. I mean, I, I live on Mo- on the Morn­ing­ton Penin­su­la, and there’s so much under­used land between here and Mel­bourne, uh, which could eas­i­ly be used for, for hous­ing, um, a- and nice hous­ing.

Alan: I know, but the, but the trans­port’s no good and there’s no, the, the, there isn’t any s- water and sew­er­age there. So, you know, it, it needs to [00:50:00] be. You can’t just say build a house there. It’s got There, there’s a lot more, lot more need­ed

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. A- and I think one of the rea­sons that we’re, we have that kind of prob­lem is it’s a dis­con­nect. I mean, the mon­ey comes from Can­ber­ra and gets spent by the states, but the states have oth­er com­pet­ing pres­sures. So, and, and then the. when they build the land, it’s, it’s taxed by the coun­cil, so the states don’t see the rev­enue from, from the hous­es ongo­ing.

So, you know, I won­der if there’s some kind of dis­con­nect that can be repaired quite eas­i­ly. Um, uh, what shall I wrap, wrap up with? Um, again, with your mag­ic wand, what’s the one thing that you would do to boost pro­duc­tiv­i­ty or to make Aus­tralia bet­ter?

Alan: Um, look, I think the, the rea­son– You got­ta look at what, what’s the rea­son that pro­duc­tiv­i­ty’s declined, and I think the, the rea­son f- the k- uh, key part of the rea­son for it is busi­ness­es haven’t been invest­ing enough. So, um, the, you know, the, in, in [00:51:00] equip­ment or any­thing. I mean, I, I think that they’re start­ing to invest in AI. Maybe that’ll boost pro­duc­tiv­i­ty. Um, I, I, I think that prob­a­bly i- if you’re, if you’re focus­ing on that, you prob­a­bly need to find some way to encour­age busi­ness­es to invest more in their, you know, in their equip­ment and their, in their build­ings and their, you know, just mak­ing them­selves more pro­duc­tive, um, ’cause they don’t seem to be int-inter­est­ed in doing it them­selves in Aus­tralia.

I don’t know why.

Tony Kynas­ton: I, I think one of the rea­sons is over­reg­u­la­tion, Alan. I s- I sit on the board where we just spend so much time on com­pli­ance

Alan: Yes. Well, look, I, I mean, I think that that’s hap­pened in hous­ing where the, the Nation­al Con­struc­tion Code has gone to more than 2,000 pages. You know, it’s a r- it’s an absolute dis­grace. So

Tony Kynas­ton: if you believe the HIA, half the cost is in tax­es

Alan: Yeah, that’s right. So look, uh, yeah, it’s the gov­ern­men­t’s fault. Let’s, let’s be

Tony Kynas­ton: Which means it’s our fault ’cause we [00:52:00] elect them. Yeah. Well, look, thank you very, very much

Alan: That’s true

Tony Kynas­ton: for giv­ing us your time. It’s, it’s been ter­rif­ic talk­ing to you again. It’s a nice, uh, book­end, I guess, to six years ago when we had you on, and, uh, I appre­ci­ate it very much

Alan: No wor­ries

Cameron: Thank you, Alan. Well, we’ll let you get to your oth­er, uh, appoint­ment. Appre­ci­ate it. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Alan: Okay thanks. See ya.

Cameron: Thanks, mate. Bye

Alan: Bye

Tony Kynas­ton: Very good

Cameron: well, after hours, Tony, you got some big news

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, we had some big news. Uh, we actu­al­ly sold the Sky Palace last week, or we exchanged on a con­tract to s- to sell the Sky Palace. So, um, a bit of a sur­prise to us. We weren’t expect­ing it, but, uh, our, uh, ten­ants, uh, broke their lease, which they’re allowed to do. Uh, and so we re-adver­tised. That kind of flushed out, uh, a local agent who approached Jen­ny and said, “I’ve got a buy­er.”

Could­n’t he– Was in a– failed to buy anoth­er, [00:53:00] um, pent­house in Syd­ney, and would, would he– could he see through your place? So we said yes, but we are going to still try and rent it out. And, um, so yeah, it was a, a b- a busy week of con­tract nego­ti­a­tions and, and show­ing him through and get­ting all our ducks lined up.

Uh, but yep, we man­aged to con­firm a sale, which is good. Good for Jen­ny. She, um, she can’t wait to get back into Mel­bourne, so that’s the next, next thing that will take up all my time is try­ing to find a place to live in Mel­bourne and buy that. So, um, uh, but it’s good. She’s, she’s feel­ing a bit iso­lat­ed down here.

Um, does­n’t play golf and can’t walk to cof­fee shops and things, so, or, and has to com­mute a fair bit for work, so, uh, for her boards. So, um, it’ll be a good thing to get back into Mel­bourne.

Cameron: Make sure the place you buy in Mel­bourne has a granny flat out the back for Chris­sy and I and Fox to come and stay in

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah.

Cameron: more often

Tony Kynas­ton: Okay. [00:54:00] Well, you and Alex, she wants me to buy one with a stu­dio so she can do a paint­ing

Cameron: That’s

Tony Kynas­ton: there.

Cameron: can, she can. Yeah, we can com­bine the two, granny flat and a stu­dio. Yeah. Very

Tony Kynas­ton: It’d be great to have you there

Cameron: Oh, that’s nice. Well, you know, I, I was think­ing, you know, afford to fly down to Mel­bourne, but we, we just dri­ve down, come down, hang out for a week, dri­ve down, go for a cou­ple of days, stay in, you know, I don’t know, some­where on the way down, halfway down.

Take a cou­ple of days, dri­ve down like we did back in the old days, and

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Cameron: and then dri­ve back up. Yeah, it’ll be love­ly. Could

Tony Kynas­ton: You could stop in Wag­ga. Stop in Wag­ga on the way.

Cameron: Is that halfway?

Tony Kynas­ton: It’s halfway between Syd­ney and Mel­bourne,

Cameron: Right.

Tony Kynas­ton: so three-quar­ters of the way from Bris­bane. Yeah

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, it’s trip. that’d be nice. We can do some more Mel­bourne events too when I

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, love­ly

Cameron: Well, uh, what have I got [00:55:00] for you? Um, put a cin­na­mon stick in your black cof­fee. That’s my big tip for this week. you ever done that?

Tony Kynas­ton: No, I haven’t.

Cameron: Trust me, Uh, change your life. and I were. For the last few weeks, we’ve been putting- we’ve moved to drink­ing black cof­fee in the morn­ings,

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Cameron: w- we were putting, first of all, car­damom pow­der I start­ed putting in the cof­fee, which was fan­tas­tic. And then Chris­sy said, “Let’s put some cin­na­mon, ground cin­na­mon in as well,” which is great. But then I had. I’ve had this jar of cin­na­mon sticks that have been sit­ting in our pantry for 15 years, and I pulled them out and I stuck a cin­na­mon stick in, and I was like, “Oh my God.” ‘Cause the oils from the cin­na­mon stick, um, leach out into the cof­fee, and you get this beau­ti­ful cin­na­mon oily cof­fee thing.

It’s absolute­ly amaz­ing. I thought I’d invent­ed it, and, uh, Claude said, “Bitch, peo­ple have been doing that in Per­sia for [00:56:00] 2,000 years.” So I was like, “Okay. Well, fair enough. I’m,

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah

Yeah. I think S- is it Cinnabon, the chain of, uh, stores in the US that sell buns? I think they do it as well in their cof­fee. They– Oh, they’re here too, are they? Okay, I haven’t seen them here.

Cameron: yeah, yeah. They,

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah.

Cameron: shops in dif­fer­ent

Tony Kynas­ton: Okay.

Cameron: here. Oh, they do it too. Wow, it’s fan­tas­tic. High­ly rec­om­mend it. Um, music this week, I dis­cov­ered that Pub­lic Image Ltd has put out albums

Tony Kynas­ton: Uh-huh.

Cameron: 10 years that I

Tony Kynas­ton: Right

Cameron: I was very famil­iar with their, I don’t know, late ’70s, ’80s, maybe ear­ly ’90s cat­a­log.

But, uh, appar­ent­ly they took a break for, like, 17 years, then John­ny ’em back togeth­er, and they’re tour­ing. They’re com­ing to Bris­bane, uh, year, yeah. Do you like PIL?

Tony Kynas­ton: I do, yes. I haven’t heard their recent stuff though. Yeah.

Cameron: good. It sur­pris­ing­ly

Tony Kynas­ton: All right

Cameron: [00:57:00] Like, I don’t know why, but all of his PIL stuff, just riffs you know, I, I, I– There’s some­thing about John­ny Rot­ten’s voice which just kin­da works,

Tony Kynas­ton: Ja. Ja

Cameron: like– I, I kin­da like it, kin­da dig it. Always have, from the Pis­tols day through PIL. Any­way, I know he’s, he’s sort of a bit of a car­i­ca­ture, um, in real life these days, but, um, so is David Lee Roth. You know, I can’t, I, you know,

Tony Kynas­ton: Hmm.

Cameron: crit­i­cize. But,

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah.

Cameron: yeah, Rec- uh, the End of World was the last album, 2023, and, um, dig­ging it.

And there was anoth­er one before that too, which was I think 20- like 20-teens, ’15, ’17, some­thing like that. It’s real­ly good.

Tony Kynas­ton: Oh, very good. I’ll check it out ’cause I do [00:58:00] like them. And that’s– that, uh, series on one of the stream­ers that Dan­ny Boyle did, um, on the Sex Pis­tols sto­ry, that’s, that’s real­ly worth look­ing at too. It’s so good.

Cameron: Oh, I

Tony Kynas­ton: a cou­ple of years ago. Yeah. No, real­ly good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s great. Yeah.

Cameron: Huh

Tony Kynas­ton: It’s told from the, uh.

Is it, uh, is it Steve Jones from mem­o­ry, the gui­tar play­er? It’s told from his per­spec­tive, but, um, yeah, real­ly great sto­ry, you know, about the bou­tique that, uh, Vivi­enne West­wood ran with, um, Mal­colm McLaren. Yeah, how he put them all togeth­er. You get the back­sto­ry betw- you know, behind some of the songs which I was­n’t aware of.

Um, you know, she was a girl from Birm­ing­ham. She just had an abor­tion. There’s a whole sto­ry around that, um, back­sto­ry around that. And, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s good. And yeah, the var­i­ous oth­er play­ers come into it. Chrissie Hyn­de

Cameron: Yeah.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah. So it’s, it’s great

Cameron: of Mal­colm McLaren. I thought Mal­colm McLaren was a freak­ing genius man. Like, he, um, abil­i­ty [00:59:00] just to, l- a bit like Bowie, just to surf trends and stay sort of rel­e­vant and cur­rent and pick stuff out. Did you ever hear his Paris album?

Tony Kynas­ton: No, I did­n’t know he had an album.

Cameron: He’s got a

Tony Kynas­ton: Real­ly? Real­ly? Okay

Cameron: well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You, you must have heard, um, Duck Rock. Buf­fa­lo Gals.

Tony Kynas­ton: Ja, ja.

Cameron: buf­fa­lo gals

Tony Kynas­ton: Ja, ja, ja, ja

Cameron: round the out­side. Well, that was him.

Tony Kynas­ton: I, I thought that was actu­al­ly a– I thought they were bands he pulled togeth­er for those records, that they were artists that he was man­ag­ing

Cameron: no. I mean, um, yeah, yes and no. I mean, l- like the Pis­tols, it was kind of, he would grab artists and pull them togeth­er, but he front­ed the, that,

Tony Kynas­ton: Oh, okay. Yep

Cameron: Rock. came out in ’83 orig­i­nal­ly, and it was him doing the vocals, but he pulled togeth­er,

Tony Kynas­ton: Right

Cameron: I think, um, they became Art of Noise, um, a lot

Tony Kynas­ton: Okay

Cameron: [01:00:00] on that. but then came out with an album ooh, in the ear­ly ’90s. see if I can. Yeah. 1994, Paris, that is just all about Paris, and it’s kind of a jazz And Cather­ine Deneuve does vocals on one of the tracks. Fran­coise Hardy does one of the tracks. He’s got a, it’s a track called Miles and Miles of Miles Davis.

He talks, uh, he sings on some of the tracks and talks on some of the tracks, but it’s this beau­ti­ful, lush, uh, atmos­pher­ic pro­duc­tion which I’ve always loved and it, I think it’s been pret­ty much derid­ed by pret­ty much every­one else on the plan­et. It’s got [01:01:00] a two-star rat­ing on

Tony Kynas­ton: No.

Cameron: Um, uh, but I love it.

I’ve always loved it. I lis­ten to it all the time. It was­n’t avail­able on stream­ing for years. I had it on CD. I had to have a rip of it to lis­ten to it. one of

Tony Kynas­ton: Oh, check it out

Cameron: I think I’m the only per­son on the plan­et who real­ly liked it.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, right

Cameron: But any­way, there you go. PIL and Mal­colm McLaren, they’re my tips for you to lis­ten to this week

Tony Kynas­ton: Thank you. Well, I’ve just been lis­ten­ing to, um, The Rolling Stones lat­est. That’s been good fun. And then gone back and lis­tened to some Nick Drake. Yeah

Cameron: Oh, Nick Drake’s great, yeah. Yeah, like, the, the Stones’ new album again is, like, just good. Like, ridicu­lous­ly good

Tony Kynas­ton: It is, isn’t it? Yeah. And, and just that it– You know, they’re just toss­ing them off, I guess, but it’s just like sim­ple blues riffs. But the way they put them togeth­er and the way they per­form [01:02:00] them, it’s, it’s very spe­cial

Cameron: You know, they kind of, uh, like a lot of guys from their era, I think in the ’80s and ’90s into a lit­tle bit, kind of lost it. They,

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Cameron: became a lit­tle bit for­mu­la­ic, over­pro­duced,

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm

Cameron: um, a lit­tle bit of a phon­ing it in kind of thing. Bowie had albums like that. Lou Reed had albums like that. Iggy. uh,

Tony Kynas­ton: Oh, and the Stones broke up for three or four years, did­n’t they? When Mick went off and did Prim­i­tive Cool, so

Cameron: Which I like. I, I kind of

Tony Kynas­ton: I did too.

Cameron: right? And I love Kei­th’s solo stuff.

Tony Kynas­ton: Oh, ex-

Cameron: Kei­th’s solo

Tony Kynas­ton: I do too. The Expen­sive Winos, those, they’re great albums. Mm.

Cameron: and I’ve, I know I’ve said this before, like Kei­th’s vocal tracks on Stones albums are always my favorites, and, um, his vocals on his solo albums, uh, the Winos albums I think is just great. He’s just got such a [01:03:00] no bull­shit, bluesy kind of rock voice.

Tony Kynas­ton: does, does­n’t he? Yeah, cig­a­rette, cig­a­rette. You can hear the cig­a­rettes through the voice, can’t you?

Cameron: Yeah, yeah, Hear us! Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a lit­tle bit, kin­da a lit­tle bit Tom Waits‑y,

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Cameron: bit blues man. He just growls stuff into it, and you can, you can, you can feel the life lived

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah.

Cameron: com­ing through the music, you

Tony Kynas­ton: I remem­ber like the– I think his biggest sin­gle was “Hap­py,” and it took me a long time, ’cause I nev­er saw the name of it. It took me a long time to work out what he was going on about, and it was actu­al­ly like an upbeat, opti­mistic song. All I heard was, “Ah, ah.”

Cameron: Yeah

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah.

Cameron: um, thing I’ve been try­ing to re- um, find a com­pa­ra­ble album to this week is, um, Scott Walk­er, Scott Walk­er’s, um, the Walk­er Broth­ers album, I think it was Nite [01:04:00] Flights. You

Tony Kynas­ton: Don’t know it. No

Cameron: You know Scott Walk­er though, right?

Tony Kynas­ton: No, I don’t. Who’s he?

Cameron: Your daugh­ter knows Scott Walk­er. you not know Scott Walk­er?

Tony Kynas­ton: I’m not

Cameron: years ago, years ago, Alex texted me going, “Oh my God, do you know who Scott Walk­er is?” I was like, “Of course I know who Scott Walk­er is.” And she was like, “Oh my God, I’m so into Scott Walk­er.”

Tony Kynas­ton: Okay. No, she has­n’t told me about him

Cameron: oh man, check out Scott Walk­er, um, Flights”, N‑I-T‑E,

Tony Kynas­ton: Right

Cameron: Bowie cov­ered on Black Tie White Noise, and I, I did­n’t real­ize it was a, it was a cov­er until many years lat­er. But, uh, oh, that reminds me of some­thing else I’ll tell you about in a sec. But, you know, Bowie would famous­ly just, you know, ch- sev­er­al times in his career, um, just not only his kind of music, but his vocal stylings and his [01:05:00] musi­cal stylings. He would steal and bor­row and all that kind of stuff.

So one of the guys that he ripped off mas­sive­ly the ’90s was Scott Walk­er. He basi­cal­ly you know, stole Scott Walk- Scott Walk­er’s musi­cal styles and vocal styles and made it his own, and then paid trib­ute to him by cov­er­ing one of his songs. Um, but yeah, so Scott Walk­er was part of a band called The Walk­er Broth­ers in the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, and they were kind of okay, mid­dle of the road, sort of LA band. Good, but not mas­sive­ly, uh, inno­v­a­tive. But then as he got old­er and start­ed doing solo stuff, he, he real­ly became very inno­v­a­tive and very, um, nou­veau art rock kind of stuff, which Bowie loved, and then, and, [01:06:00] um, sort of a, a- adopt­ed or adapt­ed his stuff.

Tony Kynas­ton: So

Cameron: with the Walk­er Broth­ers and did some more stuff.

But yeah

Tony Kynas­ton: And so what’s a, what’s a Bowie album or a Bowie song that is based on that kind of copy­ing of Scott Walk­er?

Cameron: uh, like a lot of stuff that he did in the ’90s was sort of start­ed with steal­ing that. So Black Tie White Noise, again, an album that I kind of love. You like, do you like that

Tony Kynas­ton: No. No. Well, I should­n’t. I haven’t lis­tened to it for a long time

Cameron: it was after he got mar­ried to Iman,

Tony Kynas­ton: Mm-hmm.

Cameron: um, he wa- it’s, it was sort of when he was, know, when he was com­ing out of the ’80s. And I know, you know, you met your, or dat­ed, was it your first date with Jen at the Bowie

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, the Glass Spi­der con­cert at Kooy­ong. Yes. Yeah

Cameron: I did­n’t real­ly love his, his late ’80s stuff, [01:07:00] Bowie, but then he kind of rein­vent­ed him­self.

He did Tin Machine, which I loved, and then he came out, he mar­ried Iman, and then he came out with Black Tie White Noise, which was kind of more artis­ti­cal­ly get­ting back to, you know, where he’d once been. It was pop­py, but, you know, he worked with Nile Rodgers, and it, it was­n’t Let’s Dance, but it was more sort of, um

He, he got Mick Ron­son back in and Mike Gar­son back in, and it was more avant-garde jazz start­ed to creep back into it. And s- and that was some of the Scott Walk­er influ­enced stuff. So he cov­ered Nite Flights, this Scott Walk­er song. Uh, when he sings this, and he gets more into his sort

Tony Kynas­ton: Right.

Cameron: reg­is­ter

Tony Kynas­ton: okay.

Cameron: Instead of Zig­gy played gui­tar. You ever seen that Flight of the [01:08:00] Con­chords where they do Bowie? You ever watch Flight of the Con­chords, the

Tony Kynas­ton: I, I did, yeah

Cameron: Oh, they, they have one where they, uh, I think it was in their sec­ond sea­son, where they, they do a Bowie dream song, and it’s, “Which David Bowie are you today, David Bowie?

Are you nasal­ly David Bowie, or are you bari­tone David Bowie?” Any­way, it’s a bit like the Michael Caine thing. Michael Caine up hair. oh, uh, so you ever heard of, uh, uh, Leg­endary Star­dust Cow­boy? S- the Leg­endary Star­dust Cow­boy?

Tony Kynas­ton: No

Cameron: I’ve been lis­ten­ing to him a lot this week too. So guy, the guy that invent­ed, uh, what’s c- psy­chobil­ly, um, this is a song Bowie u- used to tell. When Bowie signed to Mer­cury Records in the late ’60s, they said, “You [01:09:00] like weird stuff, right?” And he goes, “Yeah, yeah.” And they go, “Lis­ten to this.” The only oth­er artist they had signed was this guy called the Leg­endary Star­dust Cow­boy, and he was this crazy guy from Texas had like, he’d pro­duced a hand­ful of s- I think he only did one album. uh, it, it wa- you know, it was just real­ly, real­ly crazy coun­try mixed with LSD, mixed with, you know, rock­a­bil­ly, mixed with God knows, Hendrix‑y type stuff. A song called “I Took a Trip on a Gem­i­ni Space­ship”, it w- which was just, you know, kind of just weird. He could­n’t sing, he could­n’t play any instru­ments.

It was just this mish­mash of like psy­che­del­ic noise, and Bowie loved it. Any­way, loved it so much that when he invent­ed his char­ac­ter Zig­gy Star­dust, he stole the name

Tony Kynas­ton: Oh.

Cameron: [01:10:00] Star­dust Cow­boy an homage to that guy. And then lat­er on in the Hea­then, on the Hea­then album, he actu­al­ly cov­ered “I Took a Trip on a Gem­i­ni Space­ship”, as a, you know, I guess a way of throw­ing this guy some, some belat­ed coin for rip­ping off his name. Any­way, don’t lis­ten to Leg­endary Star­dust Cow­boy. It’s ter­ri­ble. It’s unlis­ten­able But do lis­ten to Scott Walk­er, “Nite Flights”. Trust me, you’ll, you’ll dig it,

Tony Kynas­ton: Okay, thanks.

Cameron: Let me know next week.

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah

Cameron: All right, let’s go talk Amer­i­ca

Tony Kynas­ton: Yeah, all right. Thank you. See you, peo­ple

Cameron: a good week. Hap­py hunt­ing